PRIVATES / PAROCHIALS, UGH !!!

[eagles73Taylor]

^^^^^What can privates do that publics cant, deny enrollment for whatever reason they choose. This means they are playing down in competition compared to a public. For instance, we just had a student enrolled in our public school district where he had to move from his mothers house to his fathers because he lets just say, is in whole heap trouble! We couldnt block his enrollment. Depending on what part of the state you live, by privates blocking a certain percentage of the population publics cant could be anywhere from 30-50% IMO.

Say Ursuline playing D V versus Minford D V, while both have 150+ students, Ursuline isnt reflecting the whole of society that Minford is. I like the free and reduced lunch idea, studies have shown direct correllation between socio economic status and athleticc success.

[BG65]

I understand the deny enrollment position. In addition, I understand that there is more parental involvement due to their financial investment. Because of this, the larger privates have advantages that publics can never achieve. At the lower divisions, I think there is some justification to the "work ethic, dedication" argument. Also, those families who are focused on athletics will do what they feel is in the best interest of their athlete. In many cases, there are violations of the rules that are not "school" driven as much as they are "booster" driven. Given this, I think the majority of programs want to to "win" a championship and not be "awarded" one!!!

[55buckeyes98]

Bishop Ready "fines" it's students for misbehavior or breaking rules. A kid chews gum in class, 5 dollar fine... A student violates the dress code/hair cut, etc. it's a fine... It's not that public schools cannot take care of discipline, they jut do not have the same means to do so... Public schools have to deal with all the issues, private schools just kick them out

[eagles73Taylor]

At the lower divisions, I think there is some justification to the "work ethic, dedication" argument. Also, those families who are focused on athletics will do what they feel is in the best interest of their athlete.

Really, are you saying that the Delphos St Johns, Uruslines, Readys and Mooneys are just working harder?

Or are they playing down in competition?

[BG65]

Perhaps you should think more in terms of the second sentence for the true powers. However, there are privates who have success to which I would say that the dedication of coaches, parents and athletes is superior to the publics in the same area.

[eaglesorfalcons]

private schools are the "aau " of high school football.

[eagles73Taylor]

BG I agree, but you can throw in publics for that same type of dedication as well. What I argue are facts that are beyond the control of a public school system that a private school can manipulate. That being denying enrollment based on tuition and stricter guidelines.

Here is the hardest point to get across to a private school supporter, they say "we dont deny anyone, we take whomever we can with tuition assistance, work programs and such!" I say, yes, but how many parents want to try that route? Meaning, take Portsmouth and divide the district up in terms of number of boys between Portsmouth Notre Dame, and Portsmouth. With all things being equal, all of those boys would stay at their school and be in the same division. However, now say that Notre Dame can charge tuition and use entrance exams to judge potential students while Portsmouth remains a free public education. How many parents of those boys living in Notre Dames district are going to make the cut or afford tuition? How many would simply have Portsmouth high school bus their kid to their door free to that parent? Thats my point, private schools block a pretty large perctentage of kids, even if it is unentional! lol Its hard to believe but there are parents out there that take the path of least resistance for their kid and their education, meaning they wont go above and beyond to ensure the best quality of life for their kids. These kids walk blindly down the public schools hallways, while not in a private setting.

This adds up to a pretty fair amount of students.

[BG65]

Eagles--your points are well made. It is a fact that there are definite differences in the make-ups of the schools. It is these very differences, I believe, that are the core of the problem. A public school equal in size is at a disadvantage due to the lack of parental involvement in supporting the program as well as the academics and the raising of funds. As a result, there is more focus on the student-athlete to be successful and, thus, higher motivation for success. It is also right that discipline can be more stringently enforced at the private school. While I am not in favor of the splitting of the two, I have also not heard of a fair way to evaluate these differences. If you are going to work in a divisor evaluation that holds to a 4-year period, I think that is as close as you can get to the reality of the situation at any point of evaluation. A lot of thinking still needs to be done. If there cannot be a reasonable solution then, I believe, division is the only answer!!

[eagles73Taylor]

I agree, a split isnt the answer. A divisor is necessary, but what formula! lol

[kahn]

I cannot speak of first hand knowledge for southern Ohio but I can talk about Cincinnati. I went to private school through the 9th grade with that freshmen year being at Cincinnati Elder. My grades sucked and I was on lots of tuition assistance and I was "asked" not to return. No biggie.

Then I transferred for my final three years at Cincinnati Western Hill High School, a public school.

At Elder, every student it seemed was involved in extracurriculars of some kind. There was an unbelievable atmosphere of school spirit and tradition and family involvement. Obviously there were a lot of rich kids.

But it was the tradition, attitude, work ethic and family support that led to their athletic success. Every kid I knew at Elder was from Cincinnati and in cities like Cincy the private schools draw mainly from a group of feeder schools in certain neighborhoods. Of course there are a few transfers.

At Western Hills I knew far more people that had bounced to different high schools and transferred in and we never won a darn thing, especially against Elder.

Anyway my point is that socio-economic issues, tradition and family involvement have more to do with private school success than recruiting. If you are going to create a separate division, then schools like Cincinnati Indian Hill, (also super rich but public) might need to be included.

Last, the attitude of if we can't beat them, create a new division so we can have some championships seems pretty weak to me.

[BG65]

gahs--I think eagles was making the same points. Again. I think these socio-economic issues are as much a part of the problem as any athletic issue that may be considered.

[friday_nite_fan]

Last, the attitude of if we can't beat them, create a new division so we can have some championships seems pretty weak to me.

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Thank you kahn for having the smartest post on this whole thread. What does it teach these kids if a whole new division is created just for parochials?? I would think it teaches them it you can't beat something, give up and find a new way around it.

[eagles73Taylor]

In 1923 the Ohsaa created the boys basketball tournaments and had 2 divisions based on enrollment. This type of tournament existed until the late 60's I believe when they went to 3 divisions. In 1988 they then went to 4 divisions. In 1972 they started the Ohsaa football playoffs and had 3 divsions, until 1980 when they went to 5 divisons. In 1994 they then went to 6 divisions. In late 90's I believe they went to open enrollment for adjacent districts. In early 2000's they went to state wide open enrollment.

What does all of this mean, that the Ohsaa realize that change in sports is inevitable. You cant look at facts and stats that show an advantage to a small group and not do something about it.

I dont want a split, what I want is for the group in charge of keeping the playing field level to see the advantage and find a formula that works for now. Things will keep changing.

[BG65]

eagles--I think many share that sentiment. However, what works in metropolitan areas may not be fair to rural areas. Then you have cities or towns in the 40,000-70,000 range that may be experiencing declining demographics that may or may not have a strong private school in their region. Is the need for change strictly private and parochial or are there other factors that need to be considered? Is the method of school funding part of the problem? Has the ACLU gone too far in removing discipline from the teachers capabilities? Why does a public school HAVE to "pass" a student regardless of his achievement? Isn't part of life having to be responsible for one's actions? While a public school is open and offers the opportunity for a student to be educated, it should be considered a privilege that requires a student to conform to the normal rules as established. There are many facets of the school problem that also contribute to the athletic differential that needs to be dealt with. Not an easy answer available in my opinion!!

[JohnKnight]

How about a FLSC. Free Lunch State Champs. If more than half your school's students qualify for free lunch you are in one division and if not you are in the other.

[Orange and Brown]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Great post GAHS

[JohnKnight]

http://www.ohio.com/news/113155499.html


The OHSAA wants to start with the BADM . . . subtract the SF . . . add the BF . . . add the TF . . . and then apply the FAC.

You start with a school's Beginning Average Daily Membership, a fancy way of saying ''student enrollment.'' Then you subtract the Socioeconomic Factor, which the committee says has a major impact on sports success. The SF is determined by using state data about free lunches provided at each school.

Then, the OHSAA would add a ''Boundary Factor,'' a measure of how easily schools can draw students from outside their immediate area. The BF weighting would come in four categories, from heaviest to lightest:

• Private schools with no restrictions.

• Private schools that limit students to certain boundaries.

• Public schools with statewide open enrollment.

• Public schools that limit open enrollment to contiguous districts.

Finally, the OHSAA would calculate the ''Tradition Factor,'' an acknowledgment that good athletes often go out of their way to attend schools with championship traditions.

The TF would be calculated over a four-year period, on a sport-by-sport basis, in the following way, from highest to lowest importance:

• State championship game appearances.

• State tournament appearances.

• Regional finals appearances.

Mix all of these factors together and you get the ''Final Athletic Count.''

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templates ... tent=94655

[Chieftain]

Thats a piece of crap idea and coming from the OHSAA, it doesn't surprise me.

If you want to level the playing field, look no farther than to have the football coaches association to come up with a competitve model. They are the ones that know whats going on.

[JohnKnight]

http://www.jjhuddle.com/news/articles/2 ... n-thursday


So what exactly does this proposal contain? No one is supposed to know – but someone says they do. Akron Beacon Journal columnist Bob Dyer wrote a piece that ran Sunday detailing in depth what the Competitive Balance Committee supposedly will propose Wednesday. He was given a draft of the proposal by someone with inside info.

In response, the OHSAA said it’s “disappointed that someone with knowledge of the proposal sent a draft of the proposal to a media outlet before it was presented to the Board.”