Private schools/Public schools/open enrollment public

[bman]

Take Newark Catholic, which can pull kids from Licking and Knox counties. They get to pull kids from a greater area of land, plus having the advantage of being in growing county right next to Columbus. There is a lot of pride in NC from past graduates who want their kids to go there. NC always has good programs that can draw kids, as well (this is not recruiting, this is having a good program).

Now let's take Africentric, which can draw from the entire city of Columbus. Both of these teams have played at the D4 level, with some, rural districts like South Webster, Peebles, etc.

Those schools are going to have an advantage based on location and their enrollment rules. Can they be beat by your more traditional small schools, yes, but they are going to win a majority of the time.

[bman]

I've had multiple friends who were offered to have their tuition paid for if they enrolled in a private school. So recruiting does happen. Does everyone do it? No. Do a majority do it? I don't believe so. Do a minority do it and give a bad name to the majority? Yes.

[xxChampionxx 5]

Now let's take Africentric, which can draw from the entire city of Columbus.

They are having a new palace constructed on the grounds of the city's scariest housing project back in the 80s/90s. Police called it Uzi Alley. I am guessing that they will have the finest athletic facilities in Columbus. I drive by it every weekday. If their field house surpasses Ohio's most famous one, I'll let the boosters in Massillon know. I'm also guessing that their enrollment moves up to D3 with MF and Beechcroft. I'm also guessing that they are building a large trophy case for many state titles in hoops and track. Get into a city and there's virtually no limit to what you can do with other people's money. Not counting educating, of course.

[jottings]

Proctorville Fairland in Lawrence County near Ironton was socked by the OHSAA for illegal recruiting recently. Was fined $5,000, and will not be able to play in any league games that count (Ohio Valley League) or take part in any post-season tournament play in all sports.

[xxChampionxx 5]

Take Newark Catholic.

Beth Hill still runs the show over there, correct? Total class act and top notch educational administrator. I'm pretty sure she is the benevolent dictator of the place as are most Columbus Diocese principals, pending whatever change hasn't happened yet (if any) with the new superintendent. I interviewed her when looking for the right school for my family. We didn't live in their "district," but were willing to relocate if that was best for our kids. She didn't think that was technically necessary since our eldest was attending a school that sends kids to four Catholic high schools at the time. I came away impressed. The idea that they may be one of "those schools" that does non-academic selective or limited admissions is absurd. Like every other smaller Catholic private school in the state, they are desperate to maintain enrollment/operational viability. To think that they may have some secret cash stash for jocks is comically stupid. Or that some coach can walk in and push for admission of athletic stud but academic dud. Sure, the Catholic kids from Licking Heights and SW Licking who attend St Pius in Reynoldsburg (a Hartley feeder school) frequently go to NC and sometimes probably for sports reasons in some cases, neither of the high schools feels any sense of "ownership" of any of those kids like the CBP is attempting to impose.

I have no problem imposing sanctions of some sort against schools that appear to be cheating, even without proof. I'll go ahead and name the most hated unholy three - SVSM, Mooney, Ursuline. Too many D1 recruits proportionally to think anything else.

But there's no reason to punish everybody for the actions of a few. Unless the school is a permanent fixture in the state finals and churns out 3-4 guys on full NCAA scholarships every year, then give the private school the benefit of the doubt and assume that we've got some Bob Lutz / Ron Hinton / Tiger Laverde / Tim Goodwin kind of coach who just gets the most out of whatever he has in the building.

[xxChampionxx 5]

Catholic schools do have one clear advantage over public schools. And I've got no problem accounting for it. Private schools don't get dropouts, burnouts, or attendees. If the public schools are willing to publish their numbers for those categories of kids, I'm perfectly willing to give them a subtractor. If a school with 350 boys can only get 200 of them to engage in their education, I think it's fine to let that school participate at DV. They may need to expand to D9 to make the underachievers competitive, but that's Ok by me.

[fortdawg]

I'll leave you guys with this one---since no one is even trying to explain the private school dominance except to give me tradition and elitism (won't take certain types of kids)---tradition comes from winning and recruiting helps with that.

FC was used earlier---here's my experience, Trimble was beaten pretty soundly in a playoff game at Trimble by FC. The best kid on the field was from McCuneville (Miller District)---now how many school districts did he pass through each morning to get to FC? Trimble was (and is) at a disadvantage when they compete with schools that have the ability to draw kids from multiple school districts.

The kids at the lower divisions from public schools don't have to introduce themselves to their teammates when they are Freshmen. How many kids on NC and FC (when they were tough) attended the same Jr. high?

Is their a private school in Ohio that doesn't have "Scholarships" for needy kids?

My solution is if you have the ability to pull kids in from a larger population----then you should play in a Division that matches that population. If the private school is rural and has a small population base---leave them at 6 or 7. If you field an all star team each year----play division l.

[art08]

Trimble made it to the championship game last year and played a public school. How does two public schools make it to the championship game in the smallest division? Division 6 has two public schools this year and division 5 has one private and one public in the championship game.

The 2014 division 7 champion will be a public school.

[bman]

Take Newark Catholic.

Beth Hill still runs the show over there, correct? Total class act and top notch educational administrator. I'm pretty sure she is the benevolent dictator of the place as are most Columbus Diocese principals, pending whatever change hasn't happened yet (if any) with the new superintendent. I interviewed her when looking for the right school for my family. We didn't live in their "district," but were willing to relocate if that was best for our kids. She didn't think that was technically necessary since our eldest was attending a school that sends kids to four Catholic high schools at the time. I came away impressed. The idea that they may be one of "those schools" that does non-academic selective or limited admissions is absurd. Like every other smaller Catholic private school in the state, they are desperate to maintain enrollment/operational viability. To think that they may have some secret cash stash for jocks is comically stupid. Or that some coach can walk in and push for admission of athletic stud but academic dud. Sure, the Catholic kids from Licking Heights and SW Licking who attend St Pius in Reynoldsburg (a Hartley feeder school) frequently go to NC and sometimes probably for sports reasons in some cases, neither of the high schools feels any sense of "ownership" of any of those kids like the CBP is attempting to impose.

I have no problem imposing sanctions of some sort against schools that appear to be cheating, even without proof. I'll go ahead and name the most hated unholy three - SVSM, Mooney, Ursuline. Too many D1 recruits proportionally to think anything else.

But there's no reason to punish everybody for the actions of a few. Unless the school is a permanent fixture in the state finals and churns out 3-4 guys on full NCAA scholarships every year, then give the private school the benefit of the doubt and assume that we've got some Bob Lutz / Ron Hinton / Tiger Laverde / Tim Goodwin kind of coach who just gets the most out of whatever he has in the building.

How about you post my full comment and not just half a sentence of it? I clearly said that NC does not recruit, people are attracted there because of its successful programs, both academic and athletic. The reason why I brought up NC is they take kids from the space of two counties, while a district like Peebles, for example, often only gets kids from a far narrower area. That is an advantage for NC, but it's not because they recruit, that's their coverage area.

I'm personally a fan of bumping private schools up that draw from a large area and public schools who have a large open enrollment up a division.

[chiefs]

I'll leave you guys with this one---since no one is even trying to explain the private school dominance except to give me tradition and elitism (won't take certain types of kids)---tradition comes from winning and recruiting helps with that.

FC was used earlier---here's my experience, Trimble was beaten pretty soundly in a playoff game at Trimble by FC. The best kid on the field was from McCuneville (Miller District)---now how many school districts did he pass through each morning to get to FC? Trimble was (and is) at a disadvantage when they compete with schools that have the ability to draw kids from multiple school districts.

The kids at the lower divisions from public schools don't have to introduce themselves to their teammates when they are Freshmen. How many kids on NC and FC (when they were tough) attended the same Jr. high?

Is their a private school in Ohio that doesn't have "Scholarships" for needy kids?

My solution is if you have the ability to pull kids in from a larger population----then you should play in a Division that matches that population. If the private school is rural and has a small population base---leave them at 6 or 7. If you field an all star team each year----play division l.

Sometimes unusual geographic outliers happen. In the 80's there was a gal from Glouster that could play basketball with the best of them, came into FC, left and played for Trimble and would go on to play high level college basketball (I want to say Miami?).

Fortdawg as always I appreciate your comments even though I disagree. Hey, kids gotta live somewhere. Would beating that tough FC team be less of a Herculean task had the player you mentioned lived in Lancaster? Perry County has a fair number of Catholic families, and some of the county's best athletes in recent memory have spent least a year or two at the two Catholic grade schools in either New Lex or Somerset. A couple end up at Rosecrans, a couple end up at Fisher. Naturally FC will have kids from Perry Co, be it McCuneville or Junction or Marietta Road or wherever. FC & Rosecrans however combined get roughly 1/2 of the would be incoming freshmen from those small eighth grade classes, the other 1/2 end up at the county schools. Never know what you're going to get with your incoming freshmen from outside the catholic jr high in Lancaster. The only PC kid we've had that has played more than four games for us in football in the past five years was a running back we had who is currently at Parris Island. But we take these kids for who they are and with open arms, Catholic or not, athlete or not. New Lex's basketball team last year had more than a couple seniors that were in the Catholic schools system out there, would've been nice to have them be a part of the school but whadcanyadoo. Same can be said for the kids that were once in our doors but left to participate in varsity sports (namely football) at schools such as Lancaster and Logan. Only one kid we've gotten in the past five years from any of those two school systems, the ones we do get massively from those areas come through the feeder system. We can talk about how FC gets some good players that their public school surely could've used 'till the cows come home, but when it's a discussion of kids we lose that go on to do big things on the field and on the court at their public school no one wants to see the side of that coin. Jimmy Cordle, anyone?

For the most part, it's hypotheticals when considering a school such as FC. Anything is possible, but it doesn't mean it will. In theory, the next best southpaw in the class of 2034 could live on Rainbow Lake Road and with parents that have the means and interest to send their kid to FC could end up there. In reality, it's not likely to happen.

I like your idea of bumping the small private schools that are not rural up - this would affect Africentric, Harvest Prep, Cleveland VASJ among others up. Portsmouth N.D. and Rosecrans would stay, NC would likely move to d6 and FC could as well.

[loganlocos]

If Columbus private schools win because of "recruiting" then explain this:

Bishop Watterson, St. Francis DeSales, Bishop Ready, and Bishop Hartley ALL have define boundaries - roughly Northwest, Northeast, Southwest, and Southeast Franklin County respectively.

St. Charles, being the only all-male catholic school, can draw student from ALL of Franklin County.

Yet St. Charles is BY FAR the worst football program in the group. In fact, outside of swimming and a couple of other smaller revenue sports, they have the worst athletic tradition.



I live in Franklin County. Trust me, the open enrollment public schools up here have a MUCH bigger advantage and abuse rules WAY worse than the major parochial schools.

[moonshine]

Don't be surprised if recruiting goes on even here in Southeast Ohio

[xxChampionxx 5]

How about you post my full comment

Seems like a waste of storage space on the server. It's only necessary to quote enough so that other readers know about which other post that I'm commenting. People can scroll.

Anyway, I don't buy the geographical argument. Dads put their kids in good programs. Good programs have repeated success. The successful programs don't need to recruit.

The CBP is a hoax.

It assumes one or two or more verifiably false assertions. One is that private schools recruit illegally but just don't get caught. The other is that private programs that have repeated success have an unfair advantage. Public programs that have repeated success are assumed to have good coaching, hard work ethic, and strong community support. Private programs with the same attributes are instead assumed to be cheating.

The whole thing is nothing but a bunch of whining about 5 or 6 schools winning too often for the last 30 years.

[xxChampionxx 5]

Yet St. Charles is BY FAR the worst football program in the group.

Correct. That proves two points. Geography doesn't matter at all. And divisions based on enrollment can only do so much to assure equal competition. Good coaching, hard work, and community support is what creates disparity in competitiveness. Compare rosters and look over the kids when they play Hartley. And then watch what happens on the field. It will be readily apparent which group of guys is putting in the serious time in the weight room.

[doubleplay643]

I agree it may be unfair to lump private & public schools together based on the number of male athletes and expect the same level of competition.

I just don’t believe it is unfair because of “recruiting” or "enrollment management" or whatever else you want to throw out there to see if it will stick that causes the level of competition to be unequal.

There is no better place than for 15-18 year old kids to figure out things might be unfair than on a field, court, or track. Embrace the "unfairness" or the fact that those kids are better than you, get better yourself, and figure out a way to win.

It is a lesson that has served us all well I imagine at some point or another.

No need for separate play-offs, let the CBP take effect (it applies to public and private) and work on getting better individually and/or as a team.

I am a public school product, but understand the choice each of us is afforded to determine the best path for our kids.

If I had access to a DeSales/Hartley/Ready type of school in my neck of the woods it would be a decision that I would have to consider, but I don't so it doesn't matter.

If a school (public or private) has a reputation for promoting excellence and abhorring mediocrity (academics and athletics) I would want the choice to decide.

Leave the play-off format alone, it ain't perfect but it is better than the alternative I think.

[PIGSKIN]

Public and Privates both recruit by the kids,dads and trainers. I think if a kid has a choice he will always choose the stronger program if he has the finacial means to do so or the school can help with finacial aid. The playing field is just a little to unfair still no way these schools have D1 athletes year in and out by the bunches. The lifes not fair message is one we hear on here alot tell that to little johnny when he's taking ped's because he wants to be better than the next guy. I say open up all schools and let kids pick where they go without any restrictions private or public

[xxChampionxx 5]

The playing field is just a little to unfair still no way these schools have D1 athletes year in and out by the bunches.

Yeah! There's a freshman at a 2-8 DIV Columbus private already getting a verbal offer from Urban Meyer, lol.

[xxChampionxx 5]

I like your idea of bumping the small private schools that are not rural up - this would affect Africentric, Harvest Prep, Cleveland VASJ among others up. Portsmouth N.D. and Rosecrans would stay, NC would likely move to d6 and FC could as well.

I don't think they have published the full details yet, but the CBP will have a waiver process based on competitiveness that won't apply the multiplier for some schools. I think OHSAA president said something like not making the playoffs for 5-6 seasons.i expect they'll tweak it over time.

[4thgoal]

Below shows the detail of the referendum that was passed this year. http://www.ohsaa.org/members/refvote/20 ... alance.pdf Since there are already 7 divisions for football, the multiplier is only 2 and will likely not affect that many schools. There will more than likely be more teams get pushed into a different division in other sports.

2-2-1 Teams in the sports of football, soccer, volleyball, basketball, baseball and softball shall be assigned to a division based upon that school’s team’s Adjusted Enrollment Count. For purposes of this section, Adjusted Enrollment Count is the count as determined by adding the Initial Enrollment Count (EMIS reported number of boys or girls) and the Additional Roster Count for the given sport.
2-2-2 The Additional Roster Count shall be calculated by adding to the Initial Roster Count the sum total of Factors and the Sport Specific Factors. The Initial Roster Count is the total number of students who were on the roster of the team in that sport at any time during the course of the current school year (freshman team, junior varsity, varsity, etc.). Note: The annual submission of the Initial Roster Count for each respective sport shall be utilized to help determine the division to which that team shall be assigned the following school year.
2-2-3 Factors shall be assigned three levels of points: Level 0, Level 1 and a Level 2 Sport Specific Factor. The purpose of the Factors is to determine from where the student-athletes come or from what system of education they come and to make appropriate adjustments accordingly. 2-2-4 For public member schools, Factors shall be assigned as follows:
- Level 0 – the student’s parents reside within the school district/designated/assigned attendance zone.
- Level 1 – the student’s parents reside outside the school district and/or designated/assigned attendance zone but the student has been continuously enrolled in the district since the beginning of 7th grade
- Level 2 Sport Specific Factor – the student’s parents reside outside the school district and/or designated/assigned attendance zone and the student has not been continuously enrolled in the district since 7th grade.
2-2-5 For non-public member schools, Factors shall be assigned as follows:
- Level 0 – the student attended the same system of education continuously since the beginning of the 7th grade and attended one of the designated/assigned feeder schools continuously since the beginning of 7th grade
- Level 1 – the student attended the same system of education continuously since the beginning of 7th grade but did not attend one of the designated/assigned feeder schools continuously since the beginning of 7th grade
- Level 2 Sport Specific Factor – the student did not attend the same system of education continuously since the beginning of 7th grade

2-2-6 The sport specific factors by which the sum total of level points shall be multiplied in determining the Adjusted Enrollment Count shall be as follows:
- Level 0 – zero (0) times each student on a respective sport team’s Initial Roster Count who meets the criteria of the factor.
- Level 1 – one (1) times each student on a respective sport team’s Initial Roster Count who meets the criteria of the factor.
- Level 2 Sport Specific Factor – a specific factor in each designated sport times each student on a respective sport team’s Initial Roster Count who meets the criteria of the factor. The Sport Specific Factors shall be two (2) in the sport of football; five (5) in the sports of volleyball, basketball, baseball and softball, and six (6) in the sport of soccer.

[bman]

How about you post my full comment

Seems like a waste of storage space on the server. It's only necessary to quote enough so that other readers know about which other post that I'm commenting. People can scroll.

Anyway, I don't buy the geographical argument. Dads put their kids in good programs. Good programs have repeated success. The successful programs don't need to recruit.

The CBP is a hoax.

It assumes one or two or more verifiably false assertions. One is that private schools recruit illegally but just don't get caught. The other is that private programs that have repeated success have an unfair advantage. Public programs that have repeated success are assumed to have good coaching, hard work ethic, and strong community support. Private programs with the same attributes are instead assumed to be cheating.

The whole thing is nothing but a bunch of whining about 5 or 6 schools winning too often for the last 30 years.

Posting only a partial comment helps you distort my post when I clearly said NC didn't recruit and you accused me of saying they do recruit.

So being able to draw kids from two counties, including one that is a growing county directly east of a major metro area is not an advantage compared to, let's say, Paint Valley drawing kids from just southwest Ross County? Interesting. Bumping NC up to D5 football and D3 in everything else would seem to be a fair move to account for their wider enrollment area. Same goes for schools like Africentric.