A Must Read for Coal Grove Fans...

[HighSchoolFootballFan]

Wow. Some of you all absolutely amaze me. The same ones who said that I was trying to "ruin" Lucas are the same ones who are saying that the problem is discipline and "me, me me". Are both things direct problems of coaching? Absolutely.
Bleeding Red: Like I've already posted, the OVC co-championships are great, ok? It's the greatest thing known to man to be remembered for tying with two or more teams who have worse records than you, it's also great getting skunked by fairland (were they 4-6? what about last year when they creamed us?). No team in the OVC can match the grove's history, not being cocky or anything like that, but try to imagine coal grove as USC is to the PAC10...
I understand playing league games are tough year in year out, but w/ coal grove's schedule the past five years, they should be able to win almost every single league game they've played with a few exceptions, and even with those exceptions, they should be able to go 8-2 year in year out.
This year they played a descent game against above average meigs, paint valley, minford... They were in all of those games, but that "scheme" prevented them from scoring enough points to win those games. It's hard to play a tough team, score 6 points or even 12 points and expect to win.
Another problem I have is that Coal Grove generally fields a team of 55 or so... Yet they insist on only playing say 15 or less of them on offense and defense. I know in high school ball there are situations where you cannot afford to not have certain kids playing both ways, but I believe there is plenty enough talent there to keep people rested. Unless you are just in insane condition, which they rarely are, then that won't work against those tough teams. Maybe that's why they're so worn down in the forth quarter, do you think? Because the o-line pretty much is the d-line, and they been running the football all game long with huge 16-play drives getting 3 yards a carry, then run out of wind in the red zone, turn the ball over on downs, and the same guys will stay on the field for defense... Come on guys, this isn't rocket science now is it?

[Bleeding Red]

Wow. Some of you all absolutely amaze me. The same ones who said that I was trying to "ruin" Lucas are the same ones who are saying that the problem is discipline and "me, me me". Are both things direct problems of coaching? Absolutely.
Bleeding Red: Like I've already posted, the OVC co-championships are great, ok? It's the greatest thing known to man to be remembered for tying with two or more teams who have worse records than you, it's also great getting skunked by fairland (were they 4-6? what about last year when they creamed us?). No team in the OVC can match the grove's history, not being cocky or anything like that, but try to imagine coal grove as USC is to the PAC10...
I understand playing league games are tough year in year out, but w/ coal grove's schedule the past five years, they should be able to win almost every single league game they've played with a few exceptions, and even with those exceptions, they should be able to go 8-2 year in year out.
This year they played a descent game against above average meigs, paint valley, minford... They were in all of those games, but that "scheme" prevented them from scoring enough points to win those games. It's hard to play a tough team, score 6 points or even 12 points and expect to win.
Another problem I have is that Coal Grove generally fields a team of 55 or so... Yet they insist on only playing say 15 or less of them on offense and defense. I know in high school ball there are situations where you cannot afford to not have certain kids playing both ways, but I believe there is plenty enough talent there to keep people rested. Unless you are just in insane condition, which they rarely are, then that won't work against those tough teams. Maybe that's why they're so worn down in the forth quarter, do you think? Because the o-line pretty much is the d-line, and they been running the football all game long with huge 16-play drives getting 3 yards a carry, then run out of wind in the red zone, turn the ball over on downs, and the same guys will stay on the field for defense... Come on guys, this isn't rocket science now is it?

Actually they laid an egg against Minford, and Minford only changed out 1-2 kids from offense to defense. Minford spreads out rushes on offense to 4-5 different backs, where CG wants to run the same 4-5 plays to the same 2 backs and eventually it gets snuffed out and the long drive stops.

I agree that Coal Grove wore down against Minford. But Coal Grove was much bigger and probably stronger up front and definitely bigger in the backfield.

But in D5 nearly every school has 90% of the offense playing defensively.

[HighSchoolFootballFan]

bleeding red: i dont mean you any offense, but do you even know what this thread is about? i know that minford beat coal grove, ok? i know that, im not arguing about that. this is about coal grove football. go post about the conquests of minford football elsewhere, please. Im not saying that you have to have 11 on offense and 11 different kids on defense, but if in fact coal grove wants to play that power run game scheme, then some kids have to be given a break, its a fact, its hard to go 4 quarters both ways, i dont care who you are.

"CG wants to run the same 4-5 plays to the same 2 backs and eventually it gets snuffed out and the long drive stops."

that statement reflects what this thread is supposed to be about. my point in starting this thread was to discuss coal groves need to change the way they play football. i could care less about how they do it in minford, and again, i mean you no offense. coal grove's scheme doesn't keep anyone guessing, and they know that. they actually pride themselves with the attitude "well, we're tougher and meaner, so it doesnt matter how we play or if you know whats coming." well that doesnt cut it in the 21st century, and thats why they are getting beaten by teams worse than they are, i mean coaches just have to be licking their chops coming up w/ a defensive plan for that.

[Bleeding Red]

bleeding red: i dont mean you any offense, but do you even know what this thread is about? i know that minford beat coal grove, ok? i know that, im not arguing about that. this is about coal grove football. go post about the conquests of minford football elsewhere, please. Im not saying that you have to have 11 on offense and 11 different kids on defense, but if in fact coal grove wants to play that power run game scheme, then some kids have to be given a break, its a fact, its hard to go 4 quarters both ways, i dont care who you are.

"CG wants to run the same 4-5 plays to the same 2 backs and eventually it gets snuffed out and the long drive stops."

that statement reflects what this thread is supposed to be about. my point in starting this thread was to discuss coal groves need to change the way they play football. i could care less about how they do it in minford, and again, i mean you no offense. coal grove's scheme doesn't keep anyone guessing, and they know that. they actually pride themselves with the attitude "well, we're tougher and meaner, so it doesnt matter how we play or if you know whats coming." well that doesnt cut it in the 21st century, and thats why they are getting beaten by teams worse than they are, i mean coaches just have to be licking their chops coming up w/ a defensive plan for that.

High school - no offense, but your clueless.


You dont get beat by teams that are worse than you are, you lose to them. That is why they track wins and losses.

To keep saying that Coal Grove is getting beat by worse teams is ridiculous.

Maybe you should grab a whistle and get out there, because you keep saying the same things and are waiting for someone to back you up.

[TOP OF THE GROVE]

Wow. Some of you all absolutely amaze me. The same ones who said that I was trying to "ruin" Lucas are the same ones who are saying that the problem is discipline and "me, me me". Are both things direct problems of coaching? Absolutely.

I know what you are saying. All I was saying if these things were addressed, we would not even have this topic to talk about. Which I hate to say, is the responsibility of the coaches. But also the kids are very different today than when we played. But just to let it be said I have a lot of respect for COACH LUCAS and in no way am I bashing him. He is the coach, and ultimately it is his call to run the team how he fells it needs to be done. If you have ever coached anything it is a lot hard than it looks from the bleachers.When your at the controls.
JMO

[HighSchoolFootballFan]

Come on bleeding red, stay with me here...
in 5 years (thats a handful) coal grove has beaten (won against) 4 total teams (subtract the thumb) with a winning record... Every one of those teams had 4 losses. Seeing as how coal grove has done no worse than 6-4 since his return... I believe that means that they're getting beaten by teams worse (less than equal) to them. LIKE I SAID, minford is a GOOD TEAM, did you hear that, I said GOOD TEAM, for the 50th time today, I KNOW THAT MINFORD BEAT COAL GROVE... The problem is, Coal Grove outgained Minford by about 50 total yards and still they were shut out... To me, something doesn't add up. I'll say it again, one more time just in case... I KNOW THAT MINFORD BEAT COAL GROVE... Now, what are you talking about red when you say this:
"You dont get beat by teams that are worse than you are, you lose to them. That is why they track wins and losses."
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Bleeding Red]

Because if CG was the better team, they would have won those games that they lost.

I agree that from what I have seen, they could have been in much better condition and there are some games that they should not have lost.......but they still lose. Whether it is from being out coached, out played, out game planned, it still comes back on the coaching staff. They have to have the kids prepared, but the kids still have to execute the preparation.

I understand you frustration, and since I dont have a dog in this fight but have seen up close and personal the Coal Grove teams of 07 and this year, I think the winning % is severely lacking for the TALENT they had on the field. I think the respect isnt there, the play calling is lackluster at best, BUT...... Lucas has a free pass to coach as long as he wants from his former sucess as the schools head coach.

I expected Coal Grove to be a much better team this year, based on what they fielded in 07 and brought back for 08.

[HighSchoolFootballFan]

I agree 100% with that... and dont get me wrong, i hope they come out this year and prove everything i say wrong. rumour has it that the schedule has been upgraded, so it will be interesting to see what happens. again, best of luck to the grove no matter what, but a few things could definitely use a tune up.

[2trap_4ever]

Because if CG was the better team, they would have won those games that they lost.

Then under your theory, in college football Ole Miss is better than Florida and LSU because they beat both of them.

I myself truely hope the Grove comes out firing on all cylinders next year, and I know people want us to pass more, if thats the case and we do try to pass when we need to get our quarterback ready to throw now, that is still my main concern with our passing game, our quarterback seems to lose the ability to throw when moved out of the pocket, now I am not knocking his athletic ability, he is missing some intangibles that a quarterback needs, like seeing the field when out of the pocket. If he can get some help with that then we will have a potent passing game next season.

[Frank Reagan]

A lot of points have been made here, good and bad. I won’t give my opinion on all but will cover some in this post. I have watched a lot of football over the last 24+ on the field and more as a player. This includes Coal Grove football in the capacity of a fan of the game and as an official. This conversation has centered on whether Coal Grove football is moving in the right direction and should there be a change of either coaching styles/philosophies or even coaches. To me, the subject goes much deeper and is something that many around might not want to swallow or agree with and I will get to this with time in my post.

Coal Grove has had a rich football tradition, one that dates me, but the stories of Red Dutey that are before my time and what I’ve seen of Coach Lucas are of great stature. The number one thing that I see from my observations of Coach Lucas and his terms as coach is stability. He has been a steadying force on the football program at Coal Grove for the better part of 30 years. Yes, he was gone for several years and the stability wasn’t there, just look at the records in his absence. Nothing to write home about, are they? In his return after the sabbatical, he was able to move the program toward winning again. Exactly what was missing? The stability he provided. Secondly, Coach Lucas is a role model for his players and students. He presents himself as a gentleman on and off the field. As the role model figure, he gives these kids someone to look up to. Many times, there are kids that do not have a positive male figure in their lives and Coach Lucas fills that. He and the members of his staff genuinely care about these kids. Many times players are just jersey numbers and pieces on a playing field, but to the Coal Grove staff, these are kids with concerns and lives. Next, on to a topic that seems to be foremost in the minds of posters, the coaching style, mainly the offense. This offense is like any other, a system. It just happens to be a ground oriented, trapping offense. This system isn’t like the fad of the day, the spread or any of its offspring. This offense is a low-tech, low risk offense that does work with the right players. It wins conference championships and state championships year in and year out all over the place. Right now, the offense du jour, the spread, grabs most of the headlines, but systems like the wing-t run at Coal Grove do still succeed and will again at the Grove. Why is it getting such a bad rap from Coal Grove faithful? To me, because of today’s me, me, me and what have you done for me lately societies and “it isn’t cool enough”. But really, what is the spread other than a high-octane version of the single wing. Ever heard of it? Yes, it was an offense popular 50 years ago. Football is cyclical like most everything else. Again, with the what have you done for me lately society, this offense was good enough to win a ton of OVC titles outright, go undefeated a few times plus beat or compete with the likes of Gallia Academy and Wheelersburg, go to the playoffs and even make deep playoff runs. What has really changed? I’ll get to that soon.

Some on here quote highly successful winning records of peewee and junior high programs from Coal Grove and wonder why it doesn’t equate to the same success as the high school program. This is a subject that makes many scratch their heads, just look at many of Fairland topics and you will see these same questions there. My answer to that is many fold, some to do with physical maturity and growth and other to do with my main thrust of the problems of today, society, but again, that will come later. On to my first point: physical maturity. As we all know, there are a lot of growth changes that occur between grade school and high school. Some kids mature earlier and faster than others. These kids usually succeed at earlier ages in sports than others and many times by the time they are juniors and seniors in high school, they are no bigger or than they were in the 7th grade. Get the picture? A kid that is two heads taller in the 6th grade might dominate but if he only grows another inch or two by his senior year, he probably has topped out and falls behind. This phenomenon is prevalent in many places, not just Coal Grove, but isn’t grasped but the problem lies with those that hang their hats on how many junior high OVC titles or peewee championships that were won and not looking to the real issues.

As I’ve said, I’ve been a football official for the last 24 years in this area and a fan even longer. In my opinion, the major issues here really boil down to two things: 1.) a shift in the talent pool in SE Ohio as a whole and 2.) attitudes of kids and society. I will tackle issue 2 first. I have witnessed the attitudes of kids move in my 24 years on the field. This encompasses things talked about in other posts like the me, me, me syndrome and discipline. Kids seem to have a sense of entitlement and it is all about them. They are there for self gratification in the form of scoring the touchdown and making sure everyone sees them do it by diving unopposed into the end zone or make that pancake block and stand over the guy so everyone sees who did it or making some other big play and striking a pose for the applause. In a forgotten time, the runner scoring the TD would have handed the ball to the official, gotten a slap from a buddy and then gone to the PAT or the sideline to get ready for then next play or the blocker would look for another block after his pancake to help the runner make a better run. Me, me, me. That‘s what it is about. As for the lack of discipline, this society is not making kids be accountable for their actions. To hear a player tell it, I don’t think I’ve called a penalty in the last 10 years where I’ve made the right call. Unbelievable isn’t it? This is not just on the playing field but it is in the classroom, at home and society. Who is at fault? Everyone is for accepting this behavior as the norm. Folks wonder why I got out of education when I did. Hmmmm. Also, kids lives and priorities have changed with kids. With computers, cell phones, video games, every movie made available on DVD, need for a job and three out of every four kid having a car (not to mention an increased drug abuse rate), there are more options for the student-athletes to occupy their time instead of football. Kids that find sports appealing in elementary school and junior high have a change of heart at the high school level for these new and inventive or more pressing activities. Many of these didn’t exist 20 years ago or weren’t as much of an issue when Coach Lucas’s run was in its hey-day. Losing just two or three athletes that could be a difference is huge in a small school like Coal Grove. Look at how many would-be athletes are walking the halls because they’d rather spend their spare time doing something else. Then finally, look at the area, especially Southeastern Ohio in general. Population shifts have been made to more urban areas, like Cleveland, Columbus, Cincinnati, Toledo, Dayton, Youngstown, Akron/Canton, their suburbs and direct vicinity for years. Why? Economy and jobs, I’d guess. Losing families with student-athletes have hurt the Lawrence, Scioto, Gallia, and Jackson County area schools for years and the situation isn’t getting much better. I feel the talent pool at Coal Grove has fallen as a direct result. Again, losing a student-athlete or two will have a larger effect on a Coal Grove than a Pickerington North or Dublin Jerome. The bigger the metropolitan area, the better the athletes just by a sheer numbers game. Look by and large at the state champs in each division, they mostly are from large metro areas or very close proximity. (Public and Private) Yes, there are exceptions, but the main thrust are in these larger areas and I see it being a continuing trend. The past few seasons, I’ve traveled and “watched” the finest in what SE Ohio has had to offer and many times it just hasn’t measured up to years past nor to the standards of what other, larger metropolitan areas (and their close proximity)) have had to offer. Why? It probably has something to do with what I’ve mentioned above in my ramblings.

What does all of this really mean? Does this mean Coal Grove will never have the glory days of the playoffs or a long run of outright OVC titles? No. There will come along the right crop of student-athletes that will be motivated to play sports instead of staying home and play Guitar Hero all day in the AC that will get it done. There will also be seasons of slugging it out in a fairly competitive OVC and non-conference schedule like recent times. Look around at other successful programs in SE Ohio and tell me the same isn’t happening. It is. Coal Grove’s program isn’t any different than most places, except ask a few teams that have never won a league title or had a winning season if they wouldn’t trade places with Coal Grove. Is this just a simple fix that is currently attributed to the current staff at Coal Grove and their system? I again say an emphatic NO. Sure there is the isolated nut-job that thinks Coach Lucas is this God-like creature, but there are many out there that think he is still the right man for the job, with the right plan, the right scheme and the right staff to get things done. He is a well-respected coach and gentleman who cares about his kids, teaches them life skills like teamwork and does things the right way.

[LetItBe]

with all the turmoil that i'm hearing about from cg parents and fans, i figured this topic might draw some attention again.
now if we could only get hsfbf to grace us with his presence again.
as an ashland grad, these small-town squabbles make me laugh.

[O_town_ANIMAL]

Minford has had a winning record, 8 and 2 the last 2 years, with playoff births both years, and have beaten Coal Grove.

wtf does this have ne thing to do wit coal grove winning/beating teams with a winning record?

[Frank Reagan]

with all the turmoil that i'm hearing about from cg parents and fans, i figured this topic might draw some attention again.

Care to elaborate on the turmoil or is this just a way to get the pot stirring?

[fuzzhead]

While letitbe and I agree on many points on here, this is just him trying to stir the pot. I don't see what a supposed Ashland fan has to do with Coal Grove.
Yes, there has been some fallout since last friday, but I'm sure the players and coaches have addressed this and are ready to go kick some Kentucky butt.

[hornet8088]

i think were on the right track i have seen good and bad this year but seen more good than bad. i seen are guys argue with each other against minford ,i think that has been taken care of, i have seen some good down field blocks that reminded me of the old , we have mixed it up more we have more than one running back, were starting to play as a team. they old grove teams were always going to the whistle blows down field blocks were every play, i have even seen everyone going toward the ball on d. when we played downfield blocking were great in the film room almost like an assist, everyone had to touch the ball on defence every play or run to where the ball was stopped, never did you walk out of a huddle and you never questioned the coach. i think the coaches should demand respect and so should parents, kids only do as they see.

[bilco 2]

you say they they lose because they don't pass the ball. well the last time i saw ironton play witch was last nite against logan, lutz don't pass the ball either. but he sure coach's a good football game. so your thinking don't hold water that the grove loses because they don't pass they lose because of breaks that happen in any game, and don't capitalize on them, not from the coaching.

[bushmaster24]

CG, wont have to worry about MINFORD again. the contract to play is over and will not be renewd...

[Frank Reagan]

CG, wont have to worry about MINFORD again. the contract to play is over and will not be renewd...

There's always the playoffs. They are in the same region, you know.

[hornet8088]

im disapointed that minford didnt want to renew the contract i think its a good game for both i know coal grove wanted to keep playing. we deed get valley for 5 more. dont have no one to replace minford yet

[thesmokinglens]

man oh man... it'd be too hard to hit on all of the points I've seen in this thread. There sure are some good ones, but there are also some pretty useless ones too. Some are going to think I'm crazy... heck, I don't care... but I wouldn't automatically call Fairland a 'lesser' team over the past couple of years. There were a handful of kids out of the class of '09 as well as this year that, in my opinion, could have been plugged in ANYWHERE in the county (take Michael Lamb for instance) and been productive. They had some excellent athletes down there.

Coal Grove on the other hand... well, they typically always have the athletes... but whether they're utilized or not... that's a different story.

Speed... well... it CAN be coached to a degree. We used to do some gooooofy workouts during gym class and then again on the track during light days... but they were meant to help develop your stride and teach you how to gain lots of ground with your steps so you don't tire out as easily, etc... but that should be taught in junior high.

Yes, Coal Grove has lost some games to eventual playoff opponents over the past years... but they were never blown out by them... simple mistakes cost them a lot of those games.

I've had a unique chance to see almost every team in the tri-state play at least a couple of times over the past several years... many of those teams more than others... but in my opinion, as far as a PROGRAM goes... it doesn't get much better than the way Tommy Harmon runs his Wayne Pioneers. If you've seen them play, you know what I'm talking about. They were pretty dismal when he took over, but he got their program turned around and they're basically in the WV playoffs every year. Generally come over and throttle the OVC... blah blah blah... but one thing I've noticed about his teams is how he utilizes so much of the talent and keeps the kids on the field fresh.

I made the mistake of reading this about 20 minutes after I was ready for bed... so I'm done... that was a mish-mash of random thoughts on the thread. Sorry if you read it all.