Nelsonville-York (7-1) 14; Athens (7-1) 13

[93Bulldog]

Sorry to say, but I was not whinning about anything what so ever ... I was nly trying to explain that Athens being D-II has no baring on how good its football team should be .... everyone keeps saying 'you guys have 350+ boys to choose from' but that is not the case ... not sure what I have to do to get that point across ... Adams does not have 350 boys, he has 44 on the roster ... Go walk the halls at Athens and tell me which 140 lb kid is gonna make Athens a better football team ... or better yet, go snag one of those soccer players and see how good he does with pads on ....

[NYBUX]

Sorry to say, but I was not whinning about anything what so ever ... I was nly trying to explain that Athens being D-II has no baring on how good its football team should be .... everyone keeps saying 'you guys have 350+ boys to choose from' but that is not the case ... not sure what I have to do to get that point across ... Adams does not have 350 boys, he has 44 on the roster ... Go walk the halls at Athens and tell me which 140 lb kid is gonna make Athens a better football team ... or better yet, go snag one of those soccer players and see how good he does with pads on ....

I shall try to explain.

according to the OHSAA
..................Athens has 363 boys
..................NY has 161

Now which of these schools would the percentages seem a little bit better as to being able to supply larger and more athletic players??

That is exactly why OHSAA came up with the different divisions so that schools with about the same numbers of boys would be competing against each other.

If all things were equal and you were a coach going in blind which would you choose to build a program 363 or 161???

[IMK01]

NYBUX - GREAT explanation. I think just about anybody could understand that one...

What I still can't understand is why some of the Athens folks keep bragging about winning the TVC All Sports trophy in one sentence, then whining about not having enough boys to play football in another sentence. Doesn't make any sense at all to me!!!

[Steely Dan]

Folks, from what I hear, there's not alot for students to do in SoRo, Vt. This is a self-portrait of Orestes and his roommate contemplating the quality of the Artesian well that supplies the law school its water......

[AxGrinder]

Mathmatically NY does have a higher percentage of boys playing football than Athens.

Athens ~ 44/363 = .12121212 x 100 = 12%

NY ~ 55/161 = .341614 x 100 = 34%

You have to change the numbers into percents before you really can compare. So the crap is crazy. Get over it people. You all sound like sixth graders.

[NYBUX]

NYBUX - GREAT explanation. I think just about anybody could understand that one...

What I still can't understand is why some of the Athens folks keep bragging about winning the TVC All Sports trophy in one sentence, then whining about not having enough boys to play football in another sentence. Doesn't make any sense at all to me!!!

Guess not

I think axegrinder must be one of those "Liberals"

[93Bulldog]

I didn't see anyone whinning ... I for one enjoy "football discussions" ... like we use to have back in the beginning with jjhuddle .... that's all the site was built for and there were threads on end and none of them were filled with smilies, cheerleading and wise cracks ... now don't get me wrong, I am all for humor, I use to go at it with the folks from Portsmouth, Jackson and Gallia .... I can't to this day go to a Portsmouth sporting event without telling them first so we can all tail-gate .... but after awhile, the GOOOOO BULLLDOGS and 'serious argumentation' gets way old ... I thought this thread was good, sure everyone had their differences and that's fine ... I will succeed to the fact we need to agree to disagree and go on ... but for 4 pages, I see nothing but good posts in support of the two teams, a few misguided posts here and there but that's gonna happen, we had a great game that was close -which made lots to discuss and disagree on - and then a Divisional debate (which happens at least 5 times a season on any given thread .... )

So anyone with animosity toward another poster because of something they believe in and want to discuss should maybe look into another form of information and entertainment .... Heck, if I had a dollar every time me and 2old got into it on jjhuddle I would be rich - but there wasn't a time when I ran into him (after meeting him in person) that I didn't enjoy ... even at the hilltop when Athens played @ Logan we had a blast before, during and after the game .... and it wasn't just 2old ... Ive argued, fought, discussed with lots of folks but love hanging out with them in person.

So don't take things personal because its beginning to look that way on this topic .... BTW, all the folks that complimented the web site ... THANKS! I got too wrapped into the Division thing to mention it ...

[questionmark]

All I know is this...

In Athens this year,
We Will Enjoy all the Fall League championships won...
We Will Enjoy the All-Sports Trophy...
We Will Enjoy all the hard work put in by all the kids in every program...
...and best of all, We Will respect our opponents and their respected programs...

No one on here can say that what (Division) your school in directly represents what kind of program you will have...that takes hard work, dedication, determination, mental toughness, (Good Academics), and good coaching...it is a machine that has a ton of working parts, and when they all match up and work together, you get to see one helluva outcome...

Interesting Side Note: (That pertains to Athens weak schedule because they are in the TVC arguement)
Division II, Region 7
TVC Athens (8-1) is ranked 13th ... compared to
SEOAL Warren (7-2) who is 14th and
SEOAL Zanesville (8-1) who is 18th

Now would it really have helped Athens that much to play a Team Like Marietta or Chillicothe (both SEOAL and both 1-8)? No, but it would have been nice to have removed Federal Hocking and replaced them with say a Jackson or Warren...

All that hurt Athens was that the 4 non-league games they did schedule this year did not pan out the way they intended...(Galia, Fed, Bloom) all had down years and Wahama has managed to buck that trend...Athens will have to live and learn from this as the Program tries to not only Win League Championships in the Future, but when they also make another push for the Play-offs...the Additions of Warren (DII) and P-Burg South will only help Athens come next year...

[athens78]

We should enjoy the Championships since we play such small schools and can't even beat them all. Let's face it who cares about cross country golf and all the other sports a lot to teams don't even have or one have a couple kids playing. The bottom line is we couldn't compete against teams our own size, but I guess at least we're winning.

[Orange and Brown]

All I know is this...

In Athens this year,
We Will Enjoy all the Fall League championships won...
We Will Enjoy the All-Sports Trophy...
We Will Enjoy all the hard work put in by all the kids in every program...
...and best of all, We Will respect our opponents and their respected programs...

No one on here can say that what (Division) your school in directly represents what kind of program you will have...that takes hard work, dedication, determination, mental toughness, (Good Academics), and good coaching...it is a machine that has a ton of working parts, and when they all match up and work together, you get to see one helluva outcome...

Interesting Side Note: (That pertains to Athens weak schedule because they are in the TVC arguement)
Division II, Region 7
TVC Athens (8-1) is ranked 13th ... compared to
SEOAL Warren (7-2) who is 14th and
SEOAL Zanesville (8-1) who is 18th

Now would it really have helped Athens that much to play a Team Like Marietta or Chillicothe (both SEOAL and both 1-8)? No, but it would have been nice to have removed Federal Hocking and replaced them with say a Jackson or Warren...

All that hurt Athens was that the 4 non-league games they did schedule this year did not pan out the way they intended...(Galia, Fed, Bloom) all had down years and Wahama has managed to buck that trend...Athens will have to live and learn from this as the Program tries to not only Win League Championships in the Future, but when they also make another push for the Play-offs...the Additions of Warren (DII) and P-Burg South will only help Athens come next year...

Zanesville is no longer in the SEOAL.

[NYBuckeye96]

TVC Athens (8-1) is ranked 13th ... compared to
SEOAL Warren (7-2) who is 14th and
SEOAL Zanesville (8-1) who is 18th

questinomark, I agree with you that Athens belongs in the TVC. And I agree with you that Athens at 8-1 has more playoff points than Warren and Zanesville. However, if Athens played the same schedule as Warren or Zanesville this season, I don't think Athens would be 8-1, 7-2, or even 6-3. They did play stronger schedules, they have both played and lost to Logan. Warren has also lost to Ironton....the team NY played and lost to last night. Ironically, last night would have been Athens @ Ironton in a SEOAL game had Athens not left the SEOAL. That is how Ironton ended up with a Week 9 non-league opening for NY in 2008 and 2009 because Athens left the SEOAL and the Week 9 SEOAL Athens vs. Ironton matchup for 2008 and 2009 had to be scrapped.

I agree with you on the fact that Athens is better off in the TVC and that Athens helps to make the TVC a stronger league. I just don't agree with how you are spinning off your comparisons of teams. NY was the strongest team on Athens schedule. If NY was on the Warren or Zanesville schedule, NY would probably be about in the middle in terms of strongest opponents. And that goes back to the fact that NY is so much smaller than most of the teams that play Warren and Zanesville. NY is a top small-school program and Warren and Zanesville are playing a lot of top large/medium sized school programs.

You are right on one more thing too.....next year Athens will have Parkersburg South and Warren on the schedule which will greatly improve the non-league schedule. It's good to keep Gallia Academy on the schedule as well. I hope the one open week you still have is filled with a top quality opponent. Now you just have to find a way to get Federal Hocking off your schedule. They will most likely fall to Division 6 when the next census is taken in 2011. If Athens wants a local, small school team for that final non-league game, at least consider Trimble. At least Trimble is a stronger opponent than Federal Hocking in most years.

I also agree with you in that this will probably be Athens best season for the forseeable future, as they are graduating a lot of top talent. It is yet to be seen what will happen to Athens in the coming years. However, I believe Athens would have been at worst in the middle of the pack in the TVC throughout the 1990s and this decade, even in the worst of years. Had Athens been in the TVC since 1990, the Bulldogs might not have won many championships (because they have always lost to NY all along anyways), but the Bulldogs rarely would have been at the bottom of the league standings. Athens would have been an average team in the league the past two decades.

As I said before, the TVC is good for Athens and Athens is good for the TVC. Now I would like to see Athens help improve the TVC as the league will no doubt hold debates on the merits of adding certain schools to the league in the coming years. I don't think we will see a 6-team TVC OHIO and a 9-team TVC HOCKING for very many years. The TVC will continue to expand. The big question is do we let more teams in the size of Athens or do we let teams in the size of Nelsonville-York?

[questionmark]

O & B - I did not know Zanesville left the SEOAL...what League are they in now?

Buck96 - I agree with everything you said above...I'm sorry if it came off as a spin of things for Athens as that wasn't the point I was trying to get across...I was simple showing that even when Athens non-league games were not helping them with many points, even with that going against them, the TVC teams were enough to keep them above teams like Warren and Zanesville who I thought were both in the SEOAL. (Guess that is just Warren)...

Just to have a little fun with this argument:
Zanesville's Schedule
Newark (0-9)
Licking Valley (4-5)
Wheeling Park (WV) (1-8)
Chillicothe (1-8)
Beaver Local (0-9)
Logan (9-0)
St. Charles (5-4)
Marietta (1-8)
Galia Academy (1-8)
Jackson (7-2)
-------------------------
Now, Athens played Gallia and Won (21-0)...
There is no reason to think Athens could not have finished (8-2) with that schedule...Logan and Jackson would be really tough games especially where they would have been played and St. Charles may have been an interesting contest...

Logan's Schedule:
Lancaster (5-4)
Pickerington North (6-3)
Hamilton Township (0-9)
Galia Academy (1-8)
Ironton (7-2)
Zanesville (8-1)
Marietta (1-8)
Warren (7-2)
Jackson (7-2)
Chillicothe (1-8)
--------------------
Now, Athens played Gallia and Won (21-0)...
There is no reason to think Athens could not have finished (6-4) or even (7-3) with that schedule...Logan and Jackson and Ironton would be really tough games especially where they would have been played and Warren, Pickerington North and Lancaster may have been interesting contest...

Warren's Schedule:
Belpre (0-9)
Morgan (0-9)
P-burg South (5-4)
Marietta (1-8)
Point Pleasant (5-3)
Meigs (4-5)
Portsmouth (6-3)
Logan (9-0)
Chillicothe (1-8)
Ironton (7-2)
--------------------------
Now, Athens played Belpre and Won (35-0) and played Meigs (56-18)...
There is no reason to think Athens could not have finished (8-2) with that schedule...Logan and Ironton would be really tough games especially where they would have been played and Portsmouth and P-burg South may have been interesting contest...give or take a few, Athens at worst would finish this schedule (6-4) or (7-3) ... with Logan and Ironton would be extremly tough games to win, while P-burg South & Portsmouth would have been games that would most likely gone down to the wire ...

Just some fun to speculate with...

And one last thing, Buck96 I am in total agreement with Athens getting rid of Federal Hocking on the schedule and replacing them with another Local Team like Trimble ... especially if/when Athens drops back down to (DIII), so there won't be too much divide between the Divisions ...

[mr.dude2010]

Sorry to say, but I was not whinning about anything what so ever ... I was nly trying to explain that Athens being D-II has no baring on how good its football team should be .... everyone keeps saying 'you guys have 350+ boys to choose from' but that is not the case ... not sure what I have to do to get that point across ... Adams does not have 350 boys, he has 44 on the roster ... Go walk the halls at Athens and tell me which 140 lb kid is gonna make Athens a better football team ... or better yet, go snag one of those soccer players and see how good he does with pads on ....

I shall try to explain.

according to the OHSAA
..................Athens has 363 boys
..................NY has 161

Now which of these schools would the percentages seem a little bit better as to being able to supply larger and more athletic players??

That is exactly why OHSAA came up with the different divisions so that schools with about the same numbers of boys would be competing against each other.

If all things were equal and you were a coach going in blind which would you choose to build a program 363 or 161???

depends. if only 40 + 17 frosh want to play football (33 + 20 frosh last year) out of the 363 and the rest are too busy playing soccer and doing shakespeare, id rather build a program from 161 good sized kids who want to play football. yes athens is DII they will be DIII next count probably becuase of how small the incoming classes are compared to class of 2010. nelsonville has a reputation and a good coach athens has sucked the last 2 decades. athens can compete with the likes of jackson and warren (not logan especially not this year) they just dont have them on the schedule, but they will in the future. stop whining if its really such a bad thing dont vote them into your league. i didnt hear any complaining last year?

[mr.dude2010]

NYBUX - GREAT explanation. I think just about anybody could understand that one...

What I still can't understand is why some of the Athens folks keep bragging about winning the TVC All Sports trophy in one sentence, then whining about not having enough boys to play football in another sentence. Doesn't make any sense at all to me!!!

no one cares about the all sports trophy. athens should win that every year because they have more people playing the weird sports no one else in the TVC care about. the TVC cares about football and basketball, and both those sports are traditionally weak spots at athens. therefore athens with its specialty in sports no one else cares about can win the all sports trophy but their football and basketball teams will need to try hard to find enough good size kids who care to compete. i personally have never once bragged about winning the all sports trophy because i know it means nothing. i believe it was a self pitying poster from a small school who brought it up?

would you like some cheese to go with that whine?

[M0TIVAT0R]

Were you folks who are crying, "those kids deserve credit for working hard," saying they were not working hard when they were losing a few yeas ago?

[questionmark]

No-
It has to be a unit...

The difference between the team then and the team now is not only are the players working harder (better strength & condition program), the coaches are working much harder...

These two things go hand-n-hand...and when you match them up, you get a good result...

A coach may look like he is working hard, but if they are unwilling to adapt to their athletes and adjust their schemes and strategies then they are only hurting the program...and that is the biggest factor that hurt the previous teams at Athens from '04-'06 ...

[mr.dude2010]

also im tired of hearing that if you include freshmen, athens has like 55 people total and therefore is not much smaller then logan.

logan doesnt dress their freshmen either they probably have almost 30 freshmen in addition to 70 ish upperclassmen who dress every friday

[M0TIVAT0R]

also im tired of hearing that if you include freshmen, athens has like 55 people total and therefore is not much smaller then logan.

logan doesnt dress their freshmen either they probably have almost 30 freshmen in addition to 70 ish upperclassmen who dress every friday

Then I suggest you tell your coach to get some more players out. Either that or tell him to let the freshmen dress for varsity games so he can look down the sidelines and see more players on Friday nights.

[mr.dude2010]

theyre too busy playing soccer or being in drama club that was the whole point of the last 2 pages havent you been paying attention? lol

[King of Kings]

Athens could not hang with schools there own size and is playing smaller schools. I agree that they have a very good coaching staff. How many games would they have won in the SEOAL this year? You can talk about soccer and drama club all you want, being the biggest school two divisions higher than every team but one gives more boys that are capable of playing football. I do not understand what is so hard to understand that. Athens took the easy way out and made their schedule much weaker than in years past. I don't understand how you can compare this years team to any in the past. Teams several years ago that did not have a very good record would have finished at worst 6-4 this year at worst.