need a leaderRBH23 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 3:47 pmNo doubt culture is important, but culture can be built and other factors matter more including coach. Here are some examples to that:Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 1:52 pmThat said, Idk how you begin to cultivate that culture when mom and dad either work at Walmart or are in rehab. Smh. Kids need examples of the result of aspiring beyond limitations. It's a sad reality and I still love people back home in seo and really wish better for them.Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 1:27 pm The key is to CHANGE the culture. To condition kids to NOT BE SATISFIED.
The ironton/Burg mantra of "at least we made the playoffs look how many schools didnt." Does NOT cultivate kids who outkick their coverage.
- ML is surrounded by other schools all of which have, as we would describe it, the right culture. And ML has historically had a good football program, but they had zero state titles before coach Goodwin came took over. Their program before him would have been considered inferior to Burg or IHS. Now, he has the record for most state titles at 13.
- Kirtland had zero playoff wins before Tiger became coach. Their program was far inferior to Burg and IHS. Since he took over, the program did a complete 180.
- Burg program was awful before Miller took over. Losing seasons were extremely common. In 1971, the year before Miller took over, Burg was 5-5. From 1972-1979, under Miller, Burg only lost 5 games total over 8 seasons!!!!
- Brian White, a player for Ed Miller, lead D1 Hilliard Davidson to 5 regional titles and two state titles using Ed Miller’s style of play. Hilliard wasn’t that good before him and has been a mess since he retired. And Hilliard is not a dying area overrun by crime and poverty.
- Burg baseball had been solid for some time with a state title under Brandon. Also lots of talent going through the programs. However, when Estep took over, Burg went to a different level winning back to back state titles and 5 regional titles. Burg has not won a regional title since Estep stepped down.
- Burg softball, before Ruby, was good but not great. Definitely not the dominating program in the area. Since Ruby, Burg has won 6 regional titles and 3 state championships.
In the cases of Kirtland, Marion Local, and Hilliard Davidson, it was the coaches that made their programs dominant. And in Hilliard’s case, their dominance came by using the same methods Ed Miller used for decades!
As for Burg, their football, softball, and baseball programs became what they were due to coaching. Ed Miller took over an average program and made them the 4th winningest program in Ohio. Estep took a good baseball program and made it better despite not having the same talent as before. And Ruby turned Burg softball into a state power regardless of size.
So what do all of these success stories above have in common? What is the one factor that lead to their success?
Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
Vass before transfers 229-75 burg 5-1, Pendleton and transfers 211-84 6-2 ironton
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Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
I agree 100%RBH23 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 3:47 pmNo doubt culture is important, but culture can be built and other factors matter more including coach. Here are some examples to that:Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 1:52 pmThat said, Idk how you begin to cultivate that culture when mom and dad either work at Walmart or are in rehab. Smh. Kids need examples of the result of aspiring beyond limitations. It's a sad reality and I still love people back home in seo and really wish better for them.Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 1:27 pm The key is to CHANGE the culture. To condition kids to NOT BE SATISFIED.
The ironton/Burg mantra of "at least we made the playoffs look how many schools didnt." Does NOT cultivate kids who outkick their coverage.
- ML is surrounded by other schools all of which have, as we would describe it, the right culture. And ML has historically had a good football program, but they had zero state titles before coach Goodwin came took over. Their program before him would have been considered inferior to Burg or IHS. Now, he has the record for most state titles at 13.
- Kirtland had zero playoff wins before Tiger became coach. Their program was far inferior to Burg and IHS. Since he took over, the program did a complete 180.
- Burg program was awful before Miller took over. Losing seasons were extremely common. In 1971, the year before Miller took over, Burg was 5-5. From 1972-1979, under Miller, Burg only lost 5 games total over 8 seasons!!!!
- Brian White, a player for Ed Miller, lead D1 Hilliard Davidson to 5 regional titles and two state titles using Ed Miller’s style of play. Hilliard wasn’t that good before him and has been a mess since he retired. And Hilliard is not a dying area overrun by crime and poverty.
- Burg baseball had been solid for some time with a state title under Brandon. Also lots of talent going through the programs. However, when Estep took over, Burg went to a different level winning back to back state titles and 5 regional titles. Burg has not won a regional title since Estep stepped down.
- Burg softball, before Ruby, was good but not great. Definitely not the dominating program in the area. Since Ruby, Burg has won 6 regional titles and 3 state championships.
In the cases of Kirtland, Marion Local, and Hilliard Davidson, it was the coaches that made their programs dominant. And in Hilliard’s case, their dominance came by using the same methods Ed Miller used for decades!
As for Burg, their football, softball, and baseball programs became what they were due to coaching. Ed Miller took over an average program and made them the 4th winningest program in Ohio. Estep took a good baseball program and made it better despite not having the same talent as before. And Ruby turned Burg softball into a state power regardless of size.
So what do all of these success stories above have in common? What is the one factor that lead to their success?
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Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
Not just a leader but a community that buys in and ALLOWS their kid to be PUSHED and scrutinized. "At least we made it look how many didnt" should NEVER be something uttered again. It's BULLSHIT. YOU FAILED to meet the your goal. Stop glossing over and making excuses for coming up short. There is NO shame in failure. The only shame is when your community shield their youth from being ACCOUNTABLE for their failure.fbnut wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 5:20 pmneed a leaderRBH23 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 3:47 pmNo doubt culture is important, but culture can be built and other factors matter more including coach. Here are some examples to that:Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 1:52 pm
That said, Idk how you begin to cultivate that culture when mom and dad either work at Walmart or are in rehab. Smh. Kids need examples of the result of aspiring beyond limitations. It's a sad reality and I still love people back home in seo and really wish better for them.
- ML is surrounded by other schools all of which have, as we would describe it, the right culture. And ML has historically had a good football program, but they had zero state titles before coach Goodwin came took over. Their program before him would have been considered inferior to Burg or IHS. Now, he has the record for most state titles at 13.
- Kirtland had zero playoff wins before Tiger became coach. Their program was far inferior to Burg and IHS. Since he took over, the program did a complete 180.
- Burg program was awful before Miller took over. Losing seasons were extremely common. In 1971, the year before Miller took over, Burg was 5-5. From 1972-1979, under Miller, Burg only lost 5 games total over 8 seasons!!!!
- Brian White, a player for Ed Miller, lead D1 Hilliard Davidson to 5 regional titles and two state titles using Ed Miller’s style of play. Hilliard wasn’t that good before him and has been a mess since he retired. And Hilliard is not a dying area overrun by crime and poverty.
- Burg baseball had been solid for some time with a state title under Brandon. Also lots of talent going through the programs. However, when Estep took over, Burg went to a different level winning back to back state titles and 5 regional titles. Burg has not won a regional title since Estep stepped down.
- Burg softball, before Ruby, was good but not great. Definitely not the dominating program in the area. Since Ruby, Burg has won 6 regional titles and 3 state championships.
In the cases of Kirtland, Marion Local, and Hilliard Davidson, it was the coaches that made their programs dominant. And in Hilliard’s case, their dominance came by using the same methods Ed Miller used for decades!
As for Burg, their football, softball, and baseball programs became what they were due to coaching. Ed Miller took over an average program and made them the 4th winningest program in Ohio. Estep took a good baseball program and made it better despite not having the same talent as before. And Ruby turned Burg softball into a state power regardless of size.
So what do all of these success stories above have in common? What is the one factor that lead to their success?
Making it IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
ITS NOT JUST FOOTBALL. THIS is a life lesson.
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Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
The idea is to build and prepare our kids NOW for expectations without a shield. The only way to do it, is to apply it. Academics and sports.Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:41 pmNot just a leader but a community that buys in and ALLOWS their kid to be PUSHED and scrutinized. "At least we made it look how many didnt" should NEVER be something uttered again. It's BULLSHIT. YOU FAILED to meet the your goal. Stop glossing over and making excuses for coming up short. There is NO shame in failure. The only shame is when your community shield their youth from being ACCOUNTABLE for their failure.fbnut wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 5:20 pmneed a leaderRBH23 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 3:47 pm
No doubt culture is important, but culture can be built and other factors matter more including coach. Here are some examples to that:
- ML is surrounded by other schools all of which have, as we would describe it, the right culture. And ML has historically had a good football program, but they had zero state titles before coach Goodwin came took over. Their program before him would have been considered inferior to Burg or IHS. Now, he has the record for most state titles at 13.
- Kirtland had zero playoff wins before Tiger became coach. Their program was far inferior to Burg and IHS. Since he took over, the program did a complete 180.
- Burg program was awful before Miller took over. Losing seasons were extremely common. In 1971, the year before Miller took over, Burg was 5-5. From 1972-1979, under Miller, Burg only lost 5 games total over 8 seasons!!!!
- Brian White, a player for Ed Miller, lead D1 Hilliard Davidson to 5 regional titles and two state titles using Ed Miller’s style of play. Hilliard wasn’t that good before him and has been a mess since he retired. And Hilliard is not a dying area overrun by crime and poverty.
- Burg baseball had been solid for some time with a state title under Brandon. Also lots of talent going through the programs. However, when Estep took over, Burg went to a different level winning back to back state titles and 5 regional titles. Burg has not won a regional title since Estep stepped down.
- Burg softball, before Ruby, was good but not great. Definitely not the dominating program in the area. Since Ruby, Burg has won 6 regional titles and 3 state championships.
In the cases of Kirtland, Marion Local, and Hilliard Davidson, it was the coaches that made their programs dominant. And in Hilliard’s case, their dominance came by using the same methods Ed Miller used for decades!
As for Burg, their football, softball, and baseball programs became what they were due to coaching. Ed Miller took over an average program and made them the 4th winningest program in Ohio. Estep took a good baseball program and made it better despite not having the same talent as before. And Ruby turned Burg softball into a state power regardless of size.
So what do all of these success stories above have in common? What is the one factor that lead to their success?
Making it IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
ITS NOT JUST FOOTBALL. THIS is a life lesson.
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Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
I wouldn't want to coach in seo. I don't think my philosophy would translate with parents based on what I observe. And I'm not one to care about feelings. I don't care how the parents feel. I don't care how the fanbase feels. My commitment is to PREPARING young men for success. The end. Not tomorrow. Today. And when a kid can't reach the grapes I refuse to bullshit that kid about how they were probably sour anyways.Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:44 pmThe idea is to build and prepare our kids NOW for expectations without a shield. The only way to do it, is to apply it. Academics and sports.Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:41 pmNot just a leader but a community that buys in and ALLOWS their kid to be PUSHED and scrutinized. "At least we made it look how many didnt" should NEVER be something uttered again. It's BULLSHIT. YOU FAILED to meet the your goal. Stop glossing over and making excuses for coming up short. There is NO shame in failure. The only shame is when your community shield their youth from being ACCOUNTABLE for their failure.
Making it IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
ITS NOT JUST FOOTBALL. THIS is a life lesson.
No. Those grapes were beautiful and delicious and you missed them. Go get em. There's no comfort or consolation. Go get them or fail. The end.
Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
Speaking for Burg only, how can they have a culture of accountability and push in the community with regards to softball but not football? Does Burg culture of excellence only show up in the spring?Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:41 pmNot just a leader but a community that buys in and ALLOWS their kid to be PUSHED and scrutinized. "At least we made it look how many didnt" should NEVER be something uttered again. It's BULLSHIT. YOU FAILED to meet the your goal. Stop glossing over and making excuses for coming up short. There is NO shame in failure. The only shame is when your community shield their youth from being ACCOUNTABLE for their failure.fbnut wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 5:20 pmneed a leaderRBH23 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 3:47 pm
No doubt culture is important, but culture can be built and other factors matter more including coach. Here are some examples to that:
- ML is surrounded by other schools all of which have, as we would describe it, the right culture. And ML has historically had a good football program, but they had zero state titles before coach Goodwin came took over. Their program before him would have been considered inferior to Burg or IHS. Now, he has the record for most state titles at 13.
- Kirtland had zero playoff wins before Tiger became coach. Their program was far inferior to Burg and IHS. Since he took over, the program did a complete 180.
- Burg program was awful before Miller took over. Losing seasons were extremely common. In 1971, the year before Miller took over, Burg was 5-5. From 1972-1979, under Miller, Burg only lost 5 games total over 8 seasons!!!!
- Brian White, a player for Ed Miller, lead D1 Hilliard Davidson to 5 regional titles and two state titles using Ed Miller’s style of play. Hilliard wasn’t that good before him and has been a mess since he retired. And Hilliard is not a dying area overrun by crime and poverty.
- Burg baseball had been solid for some time with a state title under Brandon. Also lots of talent going through the programs. However, when Estep took over, Burg went to a different level winning back to back state titles and 5 regional titles. Burg has not won a regional title since Estep stepped down.
- Burg softball, before Ruby, was good but not great. Definitely not the dominating program in the area. Since Ruby, Burg has won 6 regional titles and 3 state championships.
In the cases of Kirtland, Marion Local, and Hilliard Davidson, it was the coaches that made their programs dominant. And in Hilliard’s case, their dominance came by using the same methods Ed Miller used for decades!
As for Burg, their football, softball, and baseball programs became what they were due to coaching. Ed Miller took over an average program and made them the 4th winningest program in Ohio. Estep took a good baseball program and made it better despite not having the same talent as before. And Ruby turned Burg softball into a state power regardless of size.
So what do all of these success stories above have in common? What is the one factor that lead to their success?
Making it IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
ITS NOT JUST FOOTBALL. THIS is a life lesson.
Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
More yikkity yak and jibber jab. Follow your own advice and man up and take a coaching job. Quit making excuses. Dont sing it, bring it. Or are you still h ung up on how everyone in SEO looks slow on film.Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:48 pmI wouldn't want to coach in seo. I don't think my philosophy would translate with parents based on what I observe. And I'm not one to care about feelings. I don't care how the parents feel. I don't care how the fanbase feels. My commitment is to PREPARING young men for success. The end. Not tomorrow. Today. And when a kid can't reach the grapes I refuse to bullshit that kid about how they were probably sour anyways.Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:44 pmThe idea is to build and prepare our kids NOW for expectations without a shield. The only way to do it, is to apply it. Academics and sports.Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:41 pm
Not just a leader but a community that buys in and ALLOWS their kid to be PUSHED and scrutinized. "At least we made it look how many didnt" should NEVER be something uttered again. It's BULLSHIT. YOU FAILED to meet the your goal. Stop glossing over and making excuses for coming up short. There is NO shame in failure. The only shame is when your community shield their youth from being ACCOUNTABLE for their failure.
Making it IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
ITS NOT JUST FOOTBALL. THIS is a life lesson.
No. Those grapes were beautiful and delicious and you missed them. Go get em. There's no comfort or consolation. Go get them or fail. The end.
Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
You got a point. But If you believe things like “at least we made it and look how many didn’t” should never be uttered again and “making it IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH” then wouldn’t you agree that for teams such as Ironton and Wheelersburg that any thing less than a State Championship VICTORY is a failed season? Basically State Championship or Bust.Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:48 pmI wouldn't want to coach in seo. I don't think my philosophy would translate with parents based on what I observe. And I'm not one to care about feelings. I don't care how the parents feel. I don't care how the fanbase feels. My commitment is to PREPARING young men for success. The end. Not tomorrow. Today. And when a kid can't reach the grapes I refuse to bullshit that kid about how they were probably sour anyways.Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:44 pmThe idea is to build and prepare our kids NOW for expectations without a shield. The only way to do it, is to apply it. Academics and sports.Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:41 pm
Not just a leader but a community that buys in and ALLOWS their kid to be PUSHED and scrutinized. "At least we made it look how many didnt" should NEVER be something uttered again. It's BULLSHIT. YOU FAILED to meet the your goal. Stop glossing over and making excuses for coming up short. There is NO shame in failure. The only shame is when your community shield their youth from being ACCOUNTABLE for their failure.
Making it IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
ITS NOT JUST FOOTBALL. THIS is a life lesson.
No. Those grapes were beautiful and delicious and you missed them. Go get em. There's no comfort or consolation. Go get them or fail. The end.
And if this the attitude you have, and we as fans should also have and the code we as fans should live by…….Then there should no longer be a need to argue amongst fans of these 2 teams on things such as- state championship appearances/runners up, regional championships or runners up, regional appearances, playoff appearances, playoff wins/losses etc etc. Because anything less then a state championship VICTORY is irrelevant according to these standards
If I understood you right, then this would definitely cut back on some of the repetitive statements and back and forth arguments on this forum between Ironton and Wheelersburg.
Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
He just crowing
That what he do
When it’s time to nut up and put his mouth into action
He hides
It’s easy to spew that crap when he ain’t hit the nads to do anything
That what he do
When it’s time to nut up and put his mouth into action
He hides
It’s easy to spew that crap when he ain’t hit the nads to do anything
Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
He’s a joke and everyone on the board knows it. No one takes him seriouslyBaldeagle wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:14 am He just crowing
That what he do
When it’s time to nut up and put his mouth into action
He hides
It’s easy to spew that crap when he ain’t hit the nads to do anything
Vass before transfers 229-75 burg 5-1, Pendleton and transfers 211-84 6-2 ironton
Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
Foe button. Stop replying. Every new account just add him.
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Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
I agreeTomUnessa wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:10 amYou got a point. But If you believe things like “at least we made it and look how many didn’t” should never be uttered again and “making it IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH” then wouldn’t you agree that for teams such as Ironton and Wheelersburg that any thing less than a State Championship VICTORY is a failed season? Basically State Championship or Bust.Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:48 pmI wouldn't want to coach in seo. I don't think my philosophy would translate with parents based on what I observe. And I'm not one to care about feelings. I don't care how the parents feel. I don't care how the fanbase feels. My commitment is to PREPARING young men for success. The end. Not tomorrow. Today. And when a kid can't reach the grapes I refuse to bullshit that kid about how they were probably sour anyways.Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:44 pm
The idea is to build and prepare our kids NOW for expectations without a shield. The only way to do it, is to apply it. Academics and sports.
No. Those grapes were beautiful and delicious and you missed them. Go get em. There's no comfort or consolation. Go get them or fail. The end.
And if this the attitude you have, and we as fans should also have and the code we as fans should live by…….Then there should no longer be a need to argue amongst fans of these 2 teams on things such as- state championship appearances/runners up, regional championships or runners up, regional appearances, playoff appearances, playoff wins/losses etc etc. Because anything less then a state championship VICTORY is irrelevant according to these standardsAm I correct or did I completely misunderstand what you are trying to say?
If I understood you right, then this would definitely cut back on some of the repetitive statements and back and forth arguments on this forum between Ironton and Wheelersburg.
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Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
The example of the seo cry baby culture.TigerBob wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 11:45 am Foe button. Stop replying. Every new account just add him.
#runneruplife
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Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
Southeast Ohio Cry baby cultureBaldeagle wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 7:36 amMore yikkity yak and jibber jab. Follow your own advice and man up and take a coaching job. Quit making excuses. Dont sing it, bring it. Or are you still h ung up on how everyone in SEO looks slow on film.Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:48 pmI wouldn't want to coach in seo. I don't think my philosophy would translate with parents based on what I observe. And I'm not one to care about feelings. I don't care how the parents feel. I don't care how the fanbase feels. My commitment is to PREPARING young men for success. The end. Not tomorrow. Today. And when a kid can't reach the grapes I refuse to bullshit that kid about how they were probably sour anyways.Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:44 pm
The idea is to build and prepare our kids NOW for expectations without a shield. The only way to do it, is to apply it. Academics and sports.
No. Those grapes were beautiful and delicious and you missed them. Go get em. There's no comfort or consolation. Go get them or fail. The end.
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Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
Very good question. This guy' would be my co HC. Lol. He gets it.RBH23 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 7:33 pmSpeaking for Burg only, how can they have a culture of accountability and push in the community with regards to softball but not football? Does Burg culture of excellence only show up in the spring?Tri_State79 wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:41 pmNot just a leader but a community that buys in and ALLOWS their kid to be PUSHED and scrutinized. "At least we made it look how many didnt" should NEVER be something uttered again. It's BULLSHIT. YOU FAILED to meet the your goal. Stop glossing over and making excuses for coming up short. There is NO shame in failure. The only shame is when your community shield their youth from being ACCOUNTABLE for their failure.
Making it IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
ITS NOT JUST FOOTBALL. THIS is a life lesson.
Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
So I can see goofball replied. Guessing it’s:
Another Billy Bob with ya belly over ya belt. Exactly why seo is soft and always loses to teams up north #soft
Another Billy Bob with ya belly over ya belt. Exactly why seo is soft and always loses to teams up north #soft
Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
Couldn’t tell youTigerBob wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 2:49 pm So I can see goofball replied. Guessing it’s:
Another Billy Bob with ya belly over ya belt. Exactly why seo is soft and always loses to teams up north #soft
I no longer see his posts
Vass before transfers 229-75 burg 5-1, Pendleton and transfers 211-84 6-2 ironton
Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
Seo is the softest, most redneck area full of losers. Which makes me want to post about it all day long!
Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
Ya Bunch of “pop” drinkin , “sauce” eaten, “driven slow In the passing lane”, Old Milwaukee lovin, Hallmark writin, Gatlinburg/Myrtle Beach vacationing, Lynyrd Skynyrd listenin, Billy Bob hillbillies lol.TigerBob wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 3:59 pm Seo is the softest, most redneck area full of losers. Which makes me want to post about it all day long!
Lol I’m pretty much describing myself with the exception of Old Milwaukee(I’m more of a Yeungling fan) and Lynyrd Skynyrd(definitely Metallica
Honestly I’ve seen some really good football over the years in Southern Ohio. No shame
Last edited by TomUnessa on Sat Nov 25, 2023 5:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ironton and Marion Local coaching staffs collab
And your a idiot to say that period.TigerBob wrote: Sat Nov 25, 2023 3:59 pm Seo is the softest, most redneck area full of losers. Which makes me want to post about it all day long!
SEO football is spread out not ever child can play sports travel has a lot to do with it.
You have Bald eagle being foolish about how great their div 7 was and yet didn't make it to the state game.
YOU have others taking how much they know and how bad other teams are but yet they don't win.
SE Ohio sports are great at what they do and how they win and anyone who says different are simply fools