Competitive Balance

[LICKING COUNTY FAN]

When this takes affect and some of the private schools and open enrollment schools do not move up a division,

How much crying will we hear?

[Steely Dan]

Absolutely, positively none, in my opinion. Not warranted, at all.

Been through this with NC for many years, and yes, at one point it was an issue (e.g. Rob Kelly), but not for a long time. At the small school level, there is very little, if any advantage, for the privates. Get over it.

[LICKING COUNTY FAN]

I am willing to bet that, any non open enrollment public school that is beaten by a school that did not move up, will have fans on message boards and twitter crying more than ever.

I do not see many of the schools who move up crying abut it.

[Raider6309]

NC is not a sports power. People are mad about Desales, Toledo Central Catholic, Akron Hoban, LaSalle, and Akron SVSM. NFL and Big Ten players play at these schools

[LICKING COUNTY FAN]

I was not singling any school out,but since you have a list of schools.

I will say it is really funny that N.C. is not a sports power(I AGREE WITH THAT) but every time they beat a team from a school, with posters on this excellent site, there are all kinds of fans saying how unfair it is, and how they recruit.

[Raider6309]

Unfair is Akron SVSM. Hard to beat college recruits with normal HS kids. D3 is the who's who of cheaters. Even Steubenville would cry if they were in D3

[Stan_Marsh]

In my opinion when it comes to the public vs private there is an advantage, but mine is actually pointing a finger at the public schools for the problem. From what I've learned at MOST, certainly not all, public schools there is way too much politics involved to compete at the level of most private schools. Too many people to please, and please in ways that is other than winning. I haven't witnessed this as much at private schools, it appears for the most part most parents and authorities just want to make sure there coaches are taking care of the kids and competing at a high level while there at it.

I heard a story and it could be "urban legend", but that is one time a parent went to the principal at Columbus Bishop Hartley to complain about the Head Coach of the football team and the principal said "I'm the principal of the school, not the football coach."

[formerfcfan]

In my opinion when it comes to the public vs private there is an advantage, but mine is actually pointing a finger at the public schools for the problem. From what I've learned at MOST, certainly not all, public schools there is way too much politics involved to compete at the level of most private schools. Too many people to please, and please in ways that is other than winning. I haven't witnessed this as much at private schools, it appears for the most part most parents and authorities just want to make sure there coaches are taking care of the kids and competing at a high level while there at it.

I heard a story and it could be "urban legend", but that is one time a parent went to the principal at Columbus Bishop Hartley to complain about the Head Coach of the football team and the principal said "I'm the principal of the school, not the football coach."

This is an interesting point.

To take that point from a different angle, I think red tape and politics can put public school programs behind the 8 ball. If a public school is looking for a head coach, that district will often have their own protocols for filling the position (post internally; study whether or not the new coach can have a teaching/administrative role in the district, etc) and the process can take months. Additionally, the assembly of an assistant coaching staff can be a bear at a public school.

By contrast, the hiring process and transition between coaches can usually be an expedited process with private schools. No BOE meeting, no need to deal with a superintendent and his/her (often) useless opinion on the hire. When it comes time to determine how to fill the vacancy, often times it can be pretty simple and quick to determine whether or not they can hire a coach that wants to teach or a lay coach. The private school I follow just hired a new football coach (who also brought his top assistant) last week. They found who they wanted and didn't have to wait until January or later like some of their public school counterparts would have.

[Stan_Marsh]

^^^excellent points, I didn't think of that aspect myself, but agree 100%!

[bman]

NC is not a sports power. People are mad about Desales, Toledo Central Catholic, Akron Hoban, LaSalle, and Akron SVSM. NFL and Big Ten players play at these schools

Totally not true. If you haven't been in NC's gym, the only banners they hang are state championships and state runner-up. Very successful in football, volleyball, basketball and baseball. It's a combination of tradition, hard working students, good coaching and, yes, the ability to draw from a wider and deeper area of talent than a lot of schools they compete against in Division VI and VII.

We saw a version of competitive balance with NC moving from the crappy MSL-Cardinal Division to the MSL-Ohio and now the LCL. Newark Catholic is still a very successful program, but they haven't won as many league titles as they did in the Cardinal.

Competitive balance or my proposal of moving privates and open enrollment publics that draw talent from across a wider area up a division isn't going to totally balance things. DeSales, Moeller, St. I, the MAC schools and Africentric are still going to be successful, but some of those teams that aren't quite as elite...your 6-4 football or 12-10 basketball...won't make it as far in the tournament. Frankly, I'd like this system if I'm one of those schools to get people to shut up.

[bbn77]

I'm not very educated on the issue revolving NC and am curious. Are people hurt over NC's sports teams simply because they are able to "recruit"? Or does it also have something to do with the geography/borders of the district?

[93Bulldog]

We could start throwing out percentages (football) in how there are so few private schools in Ohio, yet they win more than half of the state titles. What actually skews the percentages from being even worse in the Mighty Mac. Besides a few teams i.e. Coldwater, Marion Local, etc ... private schools would own far more than half of the football state championships over the last 5-10 years.

[1987chieftains]

Here is a article from Cleveland.com.

CLEVELAND, Ohio – In 1999, the debate over how public and private school athletics should coexist in Georgia took a turn.
Fittingly, a high school debate team played a large role.
House Speaker Tom Murphy introduced a bill requiring all private schools to be bumped up a classification and forced to play larger schools. At the root of Murphy's bill was his hometown public school, which was having a hard time getting past private rivals. Among the struggling programs was the debate team, coached by Murphy's daughter-in-law.
The bill passed the House, 129-45. Passage in the Senate seemed very likely.
The Georgia High School Association, which oversees sports (and activities such as debate), scrambled to find a compromise. What it came up with was a multiplier formula. Already in use by neighboring Alabama, the formula multiplied private school enrollment by 1.5, causing many to be placed in a higher GHSA classification.
By 2011, the multiplier formula was in use by half a dozen states, and the Ohio High School Athletic Association was trying to join the group.
It's still trying.
Principals statewide have until Thursday at 4 p.m. to vote on the OHSAA's fourth competitive balance referendum in as many years. The previous three failed by narrow margins.
While multipliers in other states vary, none have gone the route the OHSAA hopes to go. With its sports-specific formula, the OHSAA wants to break the mold created by Alabama.
Instead of the popular flat multiplier for all sports, the OHSAA proposal uses multipliers of two (football), five (basketball, baseball, softball, volleyball) or six (soccer). It will also be applied to public schools with open enrollment.
Even if the OHSAA's latest plan is voted down, competitive balance is sure to remain an issue in Ohio, as it is across the country.
Here's a look at what other states do – or don't do – to combat the issue of competitive balance:
(States without a modification for private schools, no current plans to add one, or no noteworthy history with the issue are listed as NM.)

Alabama: The first state to adopt a multiplier (1999). A 1.35 multiplier is applied to all private school enrollments. The state association settled on 1.35 due to date that indicated athletic participation in private schools is 35 percent higher than at public schools.
Alaska: NM
Arizona: NM
Arkansas: Non-public schools with 80 or more students in grades 10-12 are moved up one classification. A multiplier was used in the past, leading to a court battle. The state association was sued by a school that was moved up two classifications and won three football games with a roster of 25 players. The court ruled that the multiplier was not unconstitutional.
California: NM
Colorado: Competitive balance is an ongoing debate. A private school success advancement system was voted down in 2013.
Connecticut: A 2.0 multiplier is applied to basketball only. Also, a point system based on tournament success is used to further adjust enrollment.
Delaware: NM
District of Columbia: NM
Florida: Has separation of private and public schools in select sports among small schools.
Georgia: Ended a 1.5 multiplier formula for private schools in 2008 after eight years. Data showed that the multiplier did not impact the percentage of private schools winning state titles. Separation of private and public schools in the state's small-school division was approved in 2012.
Hawaii: Each island sets rules for reaching state tournaments. Most have publics and privates compete with each other.
Idaho: NM
Illinois: A 1.65 multiplier is applied to private and non-boundaried schools in all sports. The state association was sued by 37 schools in 2005, leading to a settlement requiring that the multiplier go to a vote of member schools. It passed. A success advancement system was later added to alter division placement based on a team's recent postseason success. Schools may petition to move up a classification.
Indiana: A success advancement system is used, requiring that teams in all sports to move up a classification based on postseason performance.
Iowa: NM
Kansas: Proposals have been made to separate public and private schools, or move private schools into higher classifications.
Kentucky: NM
Louisiana: There has been talk in recent years of private schools forming their own association.
Maine: The state association is on record as opposing separation of public and private schools.
Maryland: Separate tournaments and state associations for public and private schools.
Massachusetts: NM
Texas is one state that has separate playoffs for public and private schools. The private schools play in a tournament run by the Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools. Pictured is Round Rock Christian, left, against Colleyville Covenant Christian in the 2013 3A volleyball state championship game. (Photo courtesy of Texas Association of Private and Parochial Schools.)
Michigan: Schools have the option to move up a division.
Minnesota: A reverse multiplier is used to reduce enrollment in some schools. The formula is based on the number of students in a school activity program and the number registered for free or reduced lunch.
Mississippi: The state association has 13 private schools. A group of school administrators failed to ban private schools from joining the state association in 2013. Other privates compete in an independent state association that also features schools from Arkansas and Louisiana.
Missouri: A 1.35 multiplier is applied to private schools in all sports. An additional 2.0 multiplier is applied to single-sex schools. A court ruled that the multipliers were not unconstitutional.
Montana: NM
Nebraska: Multiplier and other enrollment adjustment proposals have been defeated.
Nevada: A point system, based on recent success, is used to move teams up or down a division every two years.
New Hampshire: NM
New Jersey: There are multiple classifications and tournaments for public and non-public schools. Some sports bring multiple state champions together to create a Tournament of Champions.
New Mexico: NM
New York: There are multiple athletic associations, one of which is affiliated with the National Federation of High Schools. It slots non-public schools into divisions based on past success, enrollment and level of competition.
North Carolina: The state association does not allow non-boarding parochial schools to provide financial aid to athletes. There are also separate associations for independent and Christian schools.
Ohio: A competitive balance referendum is up for vote by state principals for the fourth consecutive year. The current plan includes sports-specific multipliers for football, volleyball, basketball, baseball, softball and soccer.
North Dakota: NM
Oklahoma: A state association committee is exploring reclassification in all sports.
Oregon: The state association rejected a multiplier proposal in 2012.
Pennsylvania: Competitive balance remains an ongoing issue. Prior to 1972, parochial schools competed in a separate association. The state government stopped a proposed return to split associations in 2000.
Rhode Island: NM
South Carolina: There is an independent school state association, but privates and publics also compete together in a separate association.
South Dakota: NM
Tennessee: Schools are split into two divisions: Division I for publics and privates that don't provide financial aid, and Division II for privates that offer financial aid. A 1.8 multiplier is applied to privates in Division I.
Texas: There are separate associations for public and private schools, but the public association is exploring the idea of including private schools.
Utah: NM
Vermont: NM
Virginia: There are separate tournaments and state associations for public and private schools.
Washington: NM
West Virginia: NM
Wisconsin: Separation of public and private schools ended in the 1990s. The state association created a committee in 2014 to examine competitive balance after a multiplier formula was proposed.
Wyoming: NM

[1987chieftains]

From reading this Ohio isn't the only one dealing with this issue. But from reading it, IMO if you want to look at it black and white separate them into two, public and private and be done will it. Or move the Privates school up a division or two based on passed performances in certain sports. Which to me still doesn't put the issue to bed. St Iggy, St X, Mohler, Desale TCC, Arch Hoban, Alter, Hartley, Rockin Rod's Harvest Prep..... We all know who they are and we all know they recruit. They have kids going DI every school year. So, just put any private school in a division by themselves and be done with it.

[king kong]

Ask yourself if you could make an all star team from Scioto County and put that team in D V or lower, could they compete for a state championship? I say yes they could, year in and year out.

Next, ask yourself if the economy in SEO was strong, blue and white collar jobs were plentiful and people flocked here to work, would the pool of talent greatly increase so that multiple schools could gain students to better compete? I say yes also.

So, it's about how schools in strong suburban and rural areas(Coldwater and nearby schools don't live like we do here) acquiring more talent than we in SEO and poor urban schools could ever face.

Next, throw in all the problems that poverty creates, drug use, criminal activity and such and this is a deterrent to both academic and athletic success.

Football requires numbers, and teams from these stronger suburban and urban areas don't lose a lot when the starting left tackle goes out, or the corner, but here if you lose a starter, the drop off is usually very noticeable.

[formerfcfan]

We could start throwing out percentages (football) in how there are so few private schools in Ohio, yet they win more than half of the state titles.

This isn't an argument, though.

75% of the player composition of the National Basketball Association belongs to a sub population that itself only comprises ~12% of the U.S. population. Is that somehow unfair?

[93Bulldog]

We could start throwing out percentages (football) in how there are so few private schools in Ohio, yet they win more than half of the state titles.

This isn't an argument, though.

75% of the player composition of the National Basketball Association belongs to a sub population that itself only comprises ~12% of the U.S. population. Is that somehow unfair?

What? Lol

[Omega]

In South Carolina, there are no large private schools. Private schools can opt for their own association or be part of State High School League and play up a division. There is a looming competition problem though, growing public charter high schools. Charter's have the ability to recruit across established public school boundaries. Does this situation exist in the Buckeye State and if so how does the OHSAA deal with it?

[Stone Cold]

"Private schools, which account for 17 percent of OHSAA members, continue to win state titles at a disproportionate rate. In the 14 years prior to this school year, private schools won 44 percent of the state championships."

If i read it right, that 44% is all sports. I would suggest that football championships are well above 50% in favor of private schools.

http://highschoolsports.cleveland.com/n ... l-of-2016/

[Stone Cold]

We could start throwing out percentages (football) in how there are so few private schools in Ohio, yet they win more than half of the state titles.

This isn't an argument, though.

75% of the player composition of the National Basketball Association belongs to a sub population that itself only comprises ~12% of the U.S. population. Is that somehow unfair?

What? Lol

Basically, African Americans are 12% of the US population and make up 75% of NBA players. which is an apples to oranges comparison and makes no sense at all.