Poor Choice Made by South Webster

[nozzle95]

South Webster School Athletic Director and Principal should be ashamed of themselves. Really gave SW a black eye tonight. The girls and coaches were not at fault. Actually the refs weren't either. It solely rests on the SW admin team present, who refused to do the right thing and stop the circus from performing. The Northwest and South Webster games (7th and 8th) were completely out of control. Both officials were apparantly "new" according to SW staff. First games ever, both of them, according to principal. What were they thinking???? Ever hear of having an experienced ref with a newbie??? Webster AD apparently hasn't. How girls were not SERIOUSLY injured is nothing less than a miracle. SW ADMIN on site apparently doesn't care. The refs were absolutely the worst to have ever stepped foot on a court. Whistling a fast break dead to allow a sub to enter the game, girl throws ball in bounds and it touches her own player who knocks it back out of bounds and into the hands of the first girl who then re-throws it back in bounds...no call made. One ref blew whistle to call a dead ball when the ball struck the side of the backboard but the other ref didn't, so half the girls stopped playing (that's what you do when the whistle blows) but some remained playing and ran a fast break to score...no call again. Ref's instructed girls to the wrong baskets and SW actually scored for NW...Ref's fault, points counted. Blowing whistle when girls at foul line with BB in their hands to allow subs to enter. One ref didn't even know that he had to report fouls and the number of the player who committed it to the scorer's table (7th grade game, first quarter). Literally, these are only a few of more than 25, non-subjective calls that were not made. This doesn't count the subjective calls, ie. was a foul committed, did she travel, etc. that weren't called either. Both games were completely out-of-control and was more rough than a pick-up game. The safety of both teams was compromised due to the lack of confidence on the part of both refs and the decisions, or lack thereof, of the school reps on scene. I couldn't possibly make up the stuff that actually happened. It was unbelievable. Both teams played hard, coaches for both teams were awesome. Webster 8th grade is a very solid team. How the coaches and remained semi-calm was another miracle. Both team's coaches had to explain different rules to the refs throughout the game. Once again, what was SW thinking by allowing this inexperienced ref team to take the floor together?????? They themselves do not know. The best part is a video of this game does exist. Every sports enthusiast would watch this video in a complete stupor. Words do not exist that could begin to explain the evenings events. Oh, wait...yes there is a word...DEBACLE!!! I'm sorry Webster students, coaches, players, fans, and supporters that the administrators on site for these two games made such poor choices and are too foolish to recognize the impact it had on the evening.

A very wise John Maxwell once said, "A man must be big enough to admit his mistakes, smart enough to profit from them, and strong enough to correct them”. The ball's in your court Webster AD, what will you do with it?

[ManitouDan]

I wasn't there but I did watch ND - eastern 8th grade girls last night. Don't know how many times I thought " I'm glad I'm not refereeing this mess" If the 2 guys called every foul the game would have taken until midnight. maybe the ref's were bad but calling a girls game when the kids don't understand how to play without hammering each other is very very difficult. MD

[Frank Reagan]

Did you ever think that the SW administration had little choice of the officials? I have been an OHSAA football official for 24 years and if basketball is anything like football, the number of officials are going down and not up. With it being Monday (I assume it was last night), girls varsity and jv plays on that night as well. Your better officials are probably doing a girls varsity with a like number of other officials doing the jv games and not to mention other boys and girls junior high games scheduled on that night elsewhere. Lets not forget, there are some officials out there that won't lower themselves to do junior high games so lowering the pool even greater. More than likely, the SW administration had little choice in who was left after all of that and took what they could get on a Monday night and maybe that was two first-year officials.

If what you said was true, sure, these two need help, but would it have been better to just cancel the game and let these two just not play? No. Officials need a place to learn. Pee wee and junior high are the place to do it. Yes, it is frustrating to see poor officiating, but nobody steps out on their first game and is state finals ready, heck, nobody is even varsity ready the first time out. These first-year officials need court time to get better and junior high is were it comes. Sorry, but those are the facts. I'm sure you may think, how did they pass the test, well, even the best test takers sometimes cannot put things into practice on the court/field. The fan noise, coaching noise, players hustling up and down the court and bright lights can make some go blank. It happens to the best of them, not to mention the brand spanking newbies. Sure the ideal situation is for a newbie to be with an experienced person, but with girls varsity, jv and girls and boys junior high all being played the same night, there aren't enough officials left to mentor that aren't already doing the higher level games. That game was just a victim of circumstance.

[nozzle95]

The issue wasn't that fouls were not called. Read the part about subjective calls. I know that many, many calls ie. fouls, traveling, etc. are often the opinion of the refs. AGAIN, I am not blaming the refs for their inexperience. I am stating that SW knew this and allowed two inexperienced refs to work together. The game was COMPLETELY out of control. Kids being pushed to the floor, tempers flying, girls talking "smack" on the floor, etc. that ANY experienced ref would have controlled and not tolerated. SW's reps excuse ...they admitted that it was out of control...but what can we do about it? How about stop the game, for safety purposes, and replay another day with at least one ref change. I bet you haven't heard the last from this game. Most ridiculous display of the "game" that you could imagine. I know you and guarantee with certainty that if you would have been there, you would have been in complete amazement.

[nozzle95]

XandOs...I understand what you are saying. I have been a referee in the past. Safety is a responsibility of the school. The school rep knew they were both new. Poor choice!! If you read the post AGAIN, slowly, I posted some of the calls to show the NON-subjective calls that were no brainers. I, again, am not blaming the refs for their inexperience. Sure, they DID NOT even come close to controlling the game; however, I disagree with your statement about not playing the game. You must not have been there my friend. The video would open your eyes to the debacle. After watching it, you would understand. Thanks for your commets.

[Regulator]

This is my take on officials. Great officials with experience will be working a Varsity game. Good officials with experience will be working a Varsity or JV game. Average officials with experience will be working a JV or freshmen game. Bad officials with experience will be working a Junior High Game. My question, do you want a bad official with experience teaching a first year official? Perfect scenerio is to have them mentored by a good experienced official. But that will not be the case. One thing, the Junior High level is usually ugly because of bad play and bad officiating. It is just the nature of the beast.

[nozzle95]

I again understand what you are saying...HOWEVER, is safety not a concern for any of you. I'm not talking about bumping into players or similar infractions like that that happen and will always happen. I'm talking about a complete out of control game. No leadership from the floor at all. Missing calls will always happen, blowing calls will also always take place. Allowing girls to run the show, instead of the refs, allowing rules to be made up along the way, not being decisive and sticking to your call (right or wrong), allowing physical contact in unsportsmanlike ways...I am talking about things like this. I am not upset that bad calls were made.

LET ME REPEAT THAT LAST LINE...I AM NOT UPSET THAT CALLS WERE MADE, (OR NOT MADE) BUT RATHER THAT THE GAME WAS SO OUT OF CONTROL AND WAS ALLOWED TO CONTINUE. ALSO, THAT SUCH A POOR CHOICE WAS MADE BY SW ADMIN, AND AFTER REALIZING IT, DONE NOTHING BUT BASICALLY LAUGH ABOUT IT. BE RESPONSIBLE. We all make mistakes. It is how you react and recover from the mistakes that shows character, responsibility, and true leadership.

[ssusoccer]

I was in attendance for last nights game. Honestly, I don't see how the one official passed his test. The shorter official really tried to get control, his calls would overturn the others many times. The other official would try and justify his calls to the fans when he made a call, which didn't help matters at all.
It was an interesting game. Congrats to Northwest on the win.

[Jeeps99]

You fail to mention how the girl from Northwest hit the girl from South Webster at the end of the game. The refs were bad for both teams. But South Webster was the better team last night. The fan from Northwest should of been asked to leave. They are Junior High kids, your fans should not have booed our team.

[bballermom]

I was there last night, and from the way the nothwest parents were acting, I can believe the northwest player who shoved the webster girl at the end had learned from her parent/parents how to act. The whole time I was there the northwest parents would not let up on the refs. Granted the refs didn't do a good job, but what help are the parents by screaming at the refs. There was one guy who actually stood up and said what a p!$$ poor job was being done by the refs. Nothing was done to control the crowd either. I feel bad for the young refs, they will probably not want to be a ref after lastnight.

[ssusoccer]

Fans from both teams were up out of the seats and on the floor by the bleachers on many different occassions.
One of Northwest starters from the 7th grade team was hurt due to a SW player kicking her while she was on the ground for a loose ball. She struggled the rest of the game.
Emotions ran high from the 7th grade game going into OT, and it went over into the 8th grade game.
It was tough for both teams, fans and coaches!

[Frank Reagan]

Nozzle95, it isn't just that easy to quit in the middle of a game. You can't just say, stop the game and come back when we have better officials. If you have been an official before like you say, you should realize, once a game is started, it is the official's game to finish and not the administration's to stop. If one team wants to take their team off the floor and not finish the game, then so be it. They will pay the consequences of the forfeit loss and even more at higher levels if it goes further. The state frowns on pulling teams off the floor, even for sub-par officiating.

I understand the safety issue after being an official for 24 years, but if those two were licensed officials and cannot handle the game it was their fault and nobody else's. If an official puts himself in a situation to call a game, he's putting himself out there and he is solely to blame. Again, I refer to my first post about availability of officials as to possibly how/why these guys were hired and that many times administration has to take what is there if they want their games played. Hiring officials for junior high games in basketball is harder for the administration than for varsity and jv games. Admin usually gets what's left. Hiring for junior high is like the Forest Gump life and box of chocolates reference, sometimes you never know what you're going to get. In situations like this, word will get around (to coaches, schools and other officials) and these officials will: a) have trouble ever being hired again and get some help, b) have trouble ever being hired again and take the hint to quit, c) be taken aside by their peers/association and be re-schooled with mentoring or d) be banished by no other/better official working with them and wither on the vine and quit.

What the administration might have done was to get together between games and not play the 8th grade game if the 7th grade game was so bad, pay the officials and let everyone go home, but then have angry 8th grade parents since their children didn't get to play. Being admin can be a no win situation.

You are laying the blame wrongly here. If anyone is to blame, it is the officials that put themselves out there not knowing the rules and not having the ability to control the game. Blaming the school because they knew the officials were new is weak. Blame poor officiating on the officials.

As for the "read it slowly" comment, I don't know if that was a crack on my reading ability, but I read just fine, thanks.

[favabeans]

Do not blame the administration for the refs last night. They were not the one that had been hired. The two refs that were scheduled decided to switch with Eek and Meek and that's why they were there. No one knew they were coming until they showed up. And yes they were horrible, both ways. Did fans from both sides get out of control? Yes. Did both games get out of control? Yes. But you can't blame SW administration for the whole mess. When the fans get out of control it carries over onto the floor. Hopefully the powers to be will not let Eek and Meek ref any more games until they have more instruction and read the rule book cover to cover.

[nozzle95]

XandO's - Thanks for your comments. You have stated the exact solution to the problem and this was suggested to the SW admin. The solution was...to not play the 8th grade game, based on the performance of the officiating and the conduct of the 7th grade game. This was suggested to SW, but they wouldn't listen. For a coach to stop the game would indees go down as a loss; however that would only affect one of the two teams. One team would get the loss anyway. What's more important...a loss, an upset team or spectators (most in attendance would have understood after the 7th grade performance), or the safety of the girls??? I say safety!!! I frankly don't care what the State frowns on...do you really, when it affect kids and their safety? I certainly hope not. Lastly, no cut on your reading ability...just making certain that everything read was processed. Never hurts to re-read a post before responding, may get a different take out of it the second time. Written words lack emotional tone. It's a difficult way to accurately communicate.

Thanks again.

[integrity32]

Wow, what a long way we have come in just a few years.
Once upon a time, coaches coached, players played, officals officiated (good, bad, or otherwise), and parents sat in the stands.
Now, players often dictate to coaches and officials how they will behave or participate, and such behavior is supported by their parents, who are either overinvolved and lacking in experience, or rather overinvolved and living vicariously through their children.
Now a days parents actually verbally attack kids from an opposing team(which is what your doing when you slander a kid even on this forum by fabricating the events), in efforts to support their own kid. Seriously? Is that acceptable?
From peewee ball - high school, it happens. And it's a shame.
Support your kid, but not at the expense of another.
Sure, officials in jr high may not be up to par, I agree. But dont use this forum as a means of disrespecting a child and his or her parents because of personal issues, or over zealous ambitions for your own. What adult with any character would get on here and insult a child or their parents? What is gained from that? What is gained from any of this quite honestly?
But I can guarantee you one thing, the behavior of parents and fans lying or fabricating or even simply creating negative attention towards a child will only gain you one thing, and that is a broken child.
If that's your goal, then you are well on your way. Much similar to the mom who bullied a teen girl this year via myspace causing the young girl to commit suicide.
Hash out officials, hash out coaches, but for crying out loud, spare the kids during the course of your mission.
Personal accountability...it's an amazing thing, but only if it's utilized.

[nozzle95]

integrity32...I hope you are referring to bballermom's post. That post was indeed a personal attack on kids/parents and does exemplify exactly what your point is...lack of better judgement on behalf of parents.

To address jeeps99 and bballermom's post...please make certain you state ALL the FACTS, and only things that ARE the FACTS. You may not really want to state your beliefs, rumors, or emotions in a public forum.

The facts...several times throughout the game elbows were thrown by both teams that should have been addressed by any person who carries a basketball officiating certification in their hip pocket or purse. Hostility is subjective until it turns into to physical acts. It is now objective and has to be delt with immediately and appropriately. Failure to do so sends the message to everyone that it is acceptable and has no consequences. This in turn breeds more aggression, hostility, and tempers. For you to say a punch was thrown is nothing but complete ignorance on your part. Let me define ignorant for you, in the event you think of this as an attack. Ignorant is defined as: The lack of knowledge about a subject. No punches were thrown. There were at least three cases of shoving between players, BOTH TEAMS INVOLVED, that were not addressed in any capacity by the officiating team. To address the example you used at the end of the game...a SW player had the ball and the NW player tied it up for a jump ball. The official blew the wistle to call the ball dead. The SW player didn't immediately release the NW player with the ball, so the girl you are attacking in your post stepped in between the two to separate her own player from the melee that quite possibly could have broken out. The SW player shoved the NW player's arm away from her, then the NW player shoved her back. That's when the stands, players, coaches, administrators, score keepers, etc. walked onto the court. That was the ending of the game. NO PUNCHES WERE EVER THROWN. Don't fabricate the truth and spread "rumors" around. Again, at what point was someone in an authoritive role going to STEP UP and stop this train wreck from continuing? SAFETY FIRST...ALWAYS!!!! The 8th grade game should have never been played after the debacle that started during the 7th grade game.

To address the post about feeling bad for the officials...ARE YOU SERIOUS??? How about pay for performance? I suppose you are against that concept in the workplace as well? As an official, they shouldn't ever want to referee again after that. Pathetic!! Pay a couple high school boys to ref, same quality, same results. Now, before you who are crouched and waiting to pounce do so...I know you must have OHSAA officials doing the games. I was just making a point.

In closing, I'm sure there are some who will post and tell a completely different "tale" from their side of the stands, so here's what I say...There's always the home video that could be watched!!

[favabeans]

There may be video but you can take 5 fans from each team, have them watch it and come up with 10 different versions.

The 7th grade game may have gotten rough in the last few minutes but the fans are what got the 8th grade game turning hostile. What should have happened was to clear the gym and play with just the teams and refs but it didn't so we have to move on.

The entire gym of people was involved in this melee so we should just drop it and hope that each team's next game is a safe and enjoyable one.

[Jeeps99]

nozzle95
How many Junior High games have you attended, I hope no one is riding with you because you won't be in the stands at the end of the games. I think South Webster has a great AD. What about your parents booing our kids. The girls from South Webster beat Northwest 45-15. You lost, its times to quit crying and move on.
It sounds like you think your right about everything.

[nozzle95]

It's pretty easy to look objectively at something and see if a punch was or was not thrown. It was not. Anyone who thinks or says different are only fooling themself. Why post that one was??? I don't understnad why jeeps99 uses the word "hit". Not accurate.

Clearing the gym would have been appropriate based on the crowd, but the girls still needed leadership on the court, from the refs. Clearing the gym wouldn't provide that. Not playing the game with those refs would have still been the best decision.

I completely agree that fans from SW and NW were both involved in jumping on the refs. It merely depended on who they called the infraction against, when they called one, or who the didn't call the infraction against when they should have, which was the case most of the evening.

I do hope that each team continues on successfully the remainder of the year, and safely. The original post was simply to state the events and lack of action at such. I only have responded after other's posts which I feel needed to be addressed. For example, those that I support the view of and those that contain untrue, unsupported statements.

[nozzle95]

Jeeps99 - never been thrown out of any sport in my life. Not that kind of person. At the school and ballfields year round many, many times a week. SW did win. Good ball team. Why are you so abrasive and distort facts as you have. Just tell the facts as they occurred. There is no right or wrong between the teams. Both took advantage of the other at times throughout to game. I haven't asked, nor made you continue to view this thread. If you don't want to participate in the discussion, then you simply move on to another thread. I promise I won't follow you or really even notice you have left. No crying here. Stating facts. SW AD simply should have done something besides offer a half-hearted, semi-laughing, almost apology to the NW fans and their concerns. He may be a great AD. I am not disputing that either. I simply think that there were bad choices made (or not made - which ever way you look at it). My opinion. You see, my opinion isn't a fact. It is subjective and could be wrong. I have the ability to decipher facts from opinions. My view is an opinion. No punches being thrown...FACT. Horrible refs...FACT.

Merry Christmas to you, in the event you move to another thread and I don't notice and do not get the chance to tell you before the Holidays. Be safe.

Thanks for your reply.