Referees

[Troy]

I don't get on here much but read nearly everyday and really enjoy high school basketball. This is my 4th decade of watching high school basketball around here. I have watched numerous boy's games this year and have to say the referees have been excellent. They have controlled the game, kept the flow and called the game regardless of the score other than 1 occasion. One team was up 30+ with 4:00 left in the 4th and their star player was chucking 3's and the refs made some calls against the team not showing sportsmanship, but nothing too much.

However, I've also watched several girls games. I've been fortunate enough to watch the best and I've seen probably the worst as well. I've watched Warren Local, South Webster, Northwest, Alexander, Athens, Minford and I've seen Jackson 3 times this year (along with 6 or 7 other teams). What I've noticed is the referees have way more trouble in the girl's games. For some reason when one team is up by 10 or more the losing team can pressure and knock you from stationary or knock you well off your line of path and nothing, but if you manage to get thru all that and get to the basket they call that every time,often more anticipation than contact. I've seen a girl grab the rebound about 3 feet from OB and the other team double teamed her and both girls jumped into the player knocking her OB. Called the girl out of bounds. I've seen numerous examples of this and NEVER once benefitting the team that was ahead.

Also, I have watched 2 games where both teams kept going underneath and the home team had about 12 fouls called for them underneath all resulting in free throws, several looked to be zero contact. And the same time the visiting team played the whole game going underneath and only got 1 foul called there all game and they called it on the floor! Doing this sways the game in unbelievable fashion.

Sadly, many of these guys do the big games at the Convo in the postseason. They do well for the boys but the same guys are unbelievably bad during the girls games. A foul is a foul....it used to be when the game got out of hand the refs wouldn't call much but now they only do it for the one team. It's like the refs think they are in charge of keeping the game close and it looks awful. Then they overlook stuff by the losing team and get mad when the fans yell? I've heard two different refs yell into the stands during play! Just call the game. It's the coach's job to keep the game true and sportsmanship abroad. Just like that one boys game where the star is chucking 3's late the coach looked awful and the referees looked like the ones controlling potential problems. If a team is up big and you start looking for things to call to keep it competitive then shame on you. Call it like you do the boys.

[Ironman92]

I agree with some of those points. I know the refs like to keep the clock going in a game that's been determined.....but it's not fair to come off the bench with your team up 15 and it takes twice as much contact to get a foul called. I've seen many a time over the past couple years where a girl would get drilled in the head while going for a rebound (with position)....in football (with a helmet) it's a 15 yard personal foul....in girl's high school basketball it's nothing if you are ahead comfortably.

I've watched the Jackson boys get beat by 30+ often and the refs just played on and let the game play out. I didn't think for a second that Matt Combs or Jeff Skinner were running it up. Another thing is....the kids notice. At the Jackson/Warren JV game the benches were cleared and the student section was cheering for one of our guys to score...he got off a couple of 3's and missed them and then he had the ball with about 25 seconds left and no one around him and one of the refs just blew his whistle and let him shoot free throws. He made 1 and the crowd cheered, but to me he looked completely embarrassed. He knew he wasn't touched and definitely wanted to score within the flow of the game. He's an intelligent kid that practices hard everyday...he wasn't too thrilled with the courtesy points....with that type of stuff I don't care, but the athlete involved looked to so that bothers me a bit.

Calling touchy fouls to even it out gets me maybe more than anything. If the ref is looking at the scoreboard and it's 7 fouls to 1....the team with 1 is going to get 3 or 4 fouls very soon regardless. To me that's ridiculous.

There are several good referees around and there are some bad ones....as long as they are consistent both ways and all of the game....they are plenty good.....even if they are bad it's ok as long as it doesn't seem fishy. When it's constant fouls underneath one way and nary a call underneath the other...it gets fishy.

I like the crew of Jason Wright, Mark Kreischer (sp) and Jeremy Ward...they let the girls play and rarely lose flow within the game or control....and they don't have rabbit ears with personal agendas like some.

[Ironman92]

BTW redsolo....what 3 games have you watched the Jackson girls?

[baseball16]

I92, Thanks for the compliment!! I like my crew. Our number one goal for the game is to go away and no one remember who we were or even noticed us!! That doesn't happen often :122249

We feel the number one thing about officiating is hustling into position. Do we miss calls? Yes!!! but we fill we give our best no matter what the score!

There are a lot of great Refs in SE Ohio, A lot better then us!!! But the sad thing is only the Bad ones get remembered!!!

[clevelandbrowns#1]

I agree with most of the things in this forum. I personally think Girl's games are harder to call. The reason is more grabbing and pushing due to a little less skilled athletes then the boys (I have 2 girls so I'm not trying to start any trouble with my previos remark). Girl's tend to play every play like it is the last play of the game!! Instead of getting back on "d" they tend to stay there and try to get a steal by slapping, pushing, grabbing etc...On the other hand, boy's tend to run back and set up on the defensive end.
I will agree that a team that jumps way ahead of another seems to have to play through a little more contact then the team way behind. The team that is way ahead is usually a little stronger and they can play through a little more contact then the team who is well behind (probably the softer team). Teams who are weaker or more finesse usually want the game called close and the teams who are stronger want the game more physical. The crew I work with tries to be consistent on both ends of the court. The hardest game to call is when you have a finesse team playing a more physical team. Remember that basketball is a contact sport and all contact is not a foul!!
Last but not least-I along with those I work with would love to call every game without anybody even knowing that we were even there. Today, in our society that is not going to happen very often. On any given night, the crowd that is part of the winning team will think we did a good/great job-because they won and the crowd of the losing team might think we did a good/horrible job because they were on the losing end. Just how it works!!

[Pol pot]

I agree with most of the things in this forum. I personally think Girl's games are harder to call. The reason is more grabbing and pushing due to a little less skilled athletes then the boys (I have 2 girls so I'm not trying to start any trouble with my previos remark). Girl's tend to play every play like it is the last play of the game!! Instead of getting back on "d" they tend to stay there and try to get a steal by slapping, pushing, grabbing etc...On the other hand, boy's tend to run back and set up on the defensive end.
I will agree that a team that jumps way ahead of another seems to have to play through a little more contact then the team way behind. The team that is way ahead is usually a little stronger and they can play through a little more contact then the team who is well behind (probably the softer team). Teams who are weaker or more finesse usually want the game called close and the teams who are stronger want the game more physical. The crew I work with tries to be consistent on both ends of the court. The hardest game to call is when you have a finesse team playing a more physical team. Remember that basketball is a contact sport and all contact is not a foul!!
Last but not least-I along with those I work with would love to call every game without anybody even knowing that we were even there. Today, in our society that is not going to happen very often. On any given night, the crowd that is part of the winning team will think we did a good/great job-because they won and the crowd of the losing team might think we did a good/horrible job because they were on the losing end. Just how it works!!

It is really a simple a solution, start calling the game the right way and coaches will have to start coaching fundamentals. If players are allowed to play defense with their hands they will play defense with their hands. If they are allowed to "reach in" and create jump balls, they will reach in and create jump balls. If they are allowed to guard the rebound and push people out of bounds they will guard the rebound and push people out of bounds. Don't make excuses, make people better.

[Ryanexpress]

I agree with most of the things in this forum. I personally think Girl's games are harder to call. The reason is more grabbing and pushing due to a little less skilled athletes then the boys (I have 2 girls so I'm not trying to start any trouble with my previos remark). Girl's tend to play every play like it is the last play of the game!! Instead of getting back on "d" they tend to stay there and try to get a steal by slapping, pushing, grabbing etc...On the other hand, boy's tend to run back and set up on the defensive end.
I will agree that a team that jumps way ahead of another seems to have to play through a little more contact then the team way behind. The team that is way ahead is usually a little stronger and they can play through a little more contact then the team who is well behind (probably the softer team). Teams who are weaker or more finesse usually want the game called close and the teams who are stronger want the game more physical. The crew I work with tries to be consistent on both ends of the court. The hardest game to call is when you have a finesse team playing a more physical team. Remember that basketball is a contact sport and all contact is not a foul!!
Last but not least-I along with those I work with would love to call every game without anybody even knowing that we were even there. Today, in our society that is not going to happen very often. On any given night, the crowd that is part of the winning team will think we did a good/great job-because they won and the crowd of the losing team might think we did a good/horrible job because they were on the losing end. Just how it works!!

Very well said.
I agree with you on all things except for the username....ClevelandBrowns.....I cannot even make myself put the #1 behind it.....
But seriously, I have seen ClevelandBrowns call several games & their entire crew does call the games "the right way" and they do a very nice job of it.
I believe his post is making a point & giving reasoning of why ladies games are called different than boys games.
Like their crew, our crew likes nothing more than to walk away from each & every game unoticed....But now days that is almost impossible...
We just do our best as a crew to stay as consistent as we possibly can.
As officials, obviously we are not perfect....But 99% of us study the game & do all we can to give the best we have & each of us want to get better with each game we call.

[clevelandbrowns#1]

Pol Pot,
Funny-referees fault!! Start calling the game the right way and the coaches will start teaching fundamentals. Are you serious? How about teach the proper fundamentals before trying to play the game? Kind of like getting pregnant then learn how not to!
1) Basketball is a game played with hands (contact sport) Players use their hands all the time-We all try and allow players to use their hands until they gain an advantage then a foul should be called.
2) My favorite "reach in", not in the rule books of basketball. If a player steals the ball without making contact then no foul should be called. If a player gains an advantage by, slapping, pushing, grabbing (contact made) then a foul should be called. I don't care if a player does a cart wheel a flip flop and then slides between an opponents legs and steals a ball then no foul should be called. Sometimes just because it looks like a foul should be called from the stands doesn't mean any contact was made!
3) If a person pushes an opponent to gain an advantage whether or not the player went out of bounds or not a foul should be called.

Ryan Express- Thank you for the comment-I know the people I work with work very hard and take the job of officiating very serious. I'm sure that you and your crew do also.

[Pol pot]

Never said it was referees fault, it falls squarely on coaching, if you would have read instead of flying off the handle, I clearly state, coaches will have to start coaching, but until the game is called the same way, coaches will not stop coaching that way. And i agree, a foul is a foul, but how many officials have different standards for the girls game? Too many in my opinion. You hear too many excuses about the game taking too long, or they dont want to be here all night. Call them as they occur and sooner or later some coaches will realize they must teach the game It does not take skill to play defense without pushing and shoving, it does not take skill to not guard a rebound and it does not take skill to stop reaching in. Some coaches teach this and quite a few officials officiate in a manner that allows this. Just read comments above, things are tolerated in the girls game that is not tolerated in the boys game. That's all I am saying.

[Ironman92]

I92, Thanks for the compliment!! I like my crew. Our number one goal for the game is to go away and no one remember who we were or even noticed us!! That doesn't happen often :122249

We feel the number one thing about officiating is hustling into position. Do we miss calls? Yes!!! but we fill we give our best no matter what the score!

There are a lot of great Refs in SE Ohio, A lot better then us!!! But the sad thing is only the Bad ones get remembered!!!

No problem. I'm a vocal fan for sure. But I'm also the guy who sits around people who may greatly disagree with a call and I'm sitting there nodding my head saying "good call"

There are several refs that are very good...all shapes, sizes, ages and backgrounds. The crew I've already mentioned.....all played sports, were very successful, educated and all have been coaches...and very successful. Wright has had baseball teams playing in the regionals. Kreischer has a state championship as a head coach. Ward has done a little bit of everything and has been in charge of youth program. What's all this mean? They like kids and they like the game itself. To me the game seems to mean more to them than most and they take it seriously. I see too many games where guys are just there collecting a paycheck.

Ryanexpress does a good job as well....but I don't see him too often.

I thought Brian Phipps was one of the very best, but I think he's been out of it for a few years.

[crab_apple4]

There are several refs that are very good...all shapes, sizes, ages and backgrounds. The crew I've already mentioned.....all played sports, were very successful, educated and all have been coaches...and very successful. Wright has had baseball teams playing in the regionals. Kreischer has a state championship as a head coach. Ward has done a little bit of everything and has been in charge of youth program. What's all this mean? They like kids and they like the game itself. To me the game seems to mean more to them than most and they take it seriously. I see too many games where guys are just there collecting a paycheck.

I thought Brian Phipps was one of the very best, but I think he's been out of it for a few years.

I normally don't comment on this stuff since I've been coaching, but I wanted to concur with my old buddy I92... Even though we've never had the crew you are talking about, I know all 3 and would agree with your assessment on how their background plays a positive role. Ward is a 3rd cousin of mine and even though it's been a few years since I've seen him call a game, it doesn't surprise me that he calls a good game. I didn't realize he was calling with Kreischer and Wright, which really does round out a good crew. I've had minimal dealings with Wright in the baseball setting, but it doesn't surprise me that he does a good job. I work for Mark as a junior high football coach, and he obviously knows the game. I can see why you're a fan of this group.

Also, we've had Phipps once this year and once last year. I was really happy to see that he was calling again... He does an excellent job and has a great demeanor for close/tough games.

[jazzfingers888]

Also, I have watched 2 games where both teams kept going underneath and the home team had about 12 fouls called for them underneath all resulting in free throws, several looked to be zero contact. And the same time the visiting team played the whole game going underneath and only got 1 foul called there all game and they called it on the floor! Doing this sways the game in unbelievable fashion.
2) My favorite "reach in", not in the rule books of basketball. If a player steals the ball without making contact then no foul should be called. If a player gains an advantage by, slapping, pushing, grabbing (contact made) then a foul should be called. I don't care if a player does a cart wheel a flip flop and then slides between an opponents legs and steals a ball then no foul should be called. Sometimes just because it looks like a foul should be called from the stands doesn't mean any contact was made!Like their crew, our crew likes nothing more than to walk away from each & every game unoticed....But now days that is almost impossible...
Remember that basketball is a contact sport and all contact is not a foul!!
Last but not least-I along with those I work with would love to call every game without anybody even knowing that we were even there. Today, in our society that is not going to happen very often. On any given night, the crowd that is part of the winning team will think we did a good/great job-because they won and the crowd of the losing team might think we did a good/horrible job because they were on the losing end. Just how it works!!

[Ironman92]

^^^???? we've already said those things

[Raiderball]

Who is Phipps working with now?

[eagles73Taylor]

I love what Aaron Craft told a reporter a few weeks back before a game when asked how he guards so closely without fouling? He said, I foul all the time! lol He knows that by coming out aggressive at the beginning and by continuously moving his hands out and in while using his lower body to make contact, the refs will becomed lulled to sleep eventually allowing him to become even more agressive.

This is the problem, refs are human! lol I wondered why clocks have the total number of fouls on them for? The scorekeepers and clock operator keep the officials informed about the foul situations. Why do the masses of mostly braindead on basketball rules need to know the foul situations? IMO, it just stirs the pot, hey ref, 8 fouls to 2 even it up! Yeah, your team is picking up full court press, while the other team is packing in a 2-3 zone!

I agree that girls games are harder to officiate, a lot of contact that is unintentional that sometimes creates advantages and sometimes doesnt! Trying to weed out that mess isnt fun.

[clevelandbrowns#1]

Eagles73,
Very well said!! Agree totally with you about your girl's statement.

[blazing speed]

I love what Aaron Craft told a reporter a few weeks back before a game when asked how he guards so closely without fouling? He said, I foul all the time! lol He knows that by coming out aggressive at the beginning and by continuously moving his hands out and in while using his lower body to make contact, the refs will becomed lulled to sleep eventually allowing him to become even more agressive.

This is the problem, refs are human! lol I wondered why clocks have the total number of fouls on them for? The scorekeepers and clock operator keep the officials informed about the foul situations. Why do the masses of mostly braindead on basketball rules need to know the foul situations? IMO, it just stirs the pot, hey ref, 8 fouls to 2 even it up! Yeah, your team is picking up full court press, while the other team is packing in a 2-3 zone!

I agree that girls games are harder to officiate, a lot of contact that is unintentional that sometimes creates advantages and sometimes doesnt! Trying to weed out that mess isnt fun.

Any official that says he doesn't look at the foul situation is fibbing. I think officials are running into a size and strength despairity (girls & boys) that makes the game look like its not being officiated well. Some girls that train all year are bigger, stronger and faster than many other girls. The stronger girls are fouled but absorb the blow like nothing happened and finish their shot. Whereas a much weaker girl or team simply goes flying to the floor with barely any contact. This makes many officials look as if they are calling a bad game when actually they are allowing the same on both ends of the court but one side looks dramatically worse.

[Ironman92]

I love what Aaron Craft told a reporter a few weeks back before a game when asked how he guards so closely without fouling? He said, I foul all the time! lol He knows that by coming out aggressive at the beginning and by continuously moving his hands out and in while using his lower body to make contact, the refs will becomed lulled to sleep eventually allowing him to become even more agressive.

This is the problem, refs are human! lol I wondered why clocks have the total number of fouls on them for? The scorekeepers and clock operator keep the officials informed about the foul situations. Why do the masses of mostly braindead on basketball rules need to know the foul situations? IMO, it just stirs the pot, hey ref, 8 fouls to 2 even it up! Yeah, your team is picking up full court press, while the other team is packing in a 2-3 zone!

I agree that girls games are harder to officiate, a lot of contact that is unintentional that sometimes creates advantages and sometimes doesnt! Trying to weed out that mess isnt fun.

Any official that says he doesn't look at the foul situation is fibbing. I think officials are running into a size and strength despairity (girls & boys) that makes the game look like its not being officiated well. Some girls that train all year are bigger, stronger and faster than many other girls. The stronger girls are fouled but absorb the blow like nothing happened and finish their shot. Whereas a much weaker girl or team simply goes flying to the floor with barely any contact. This makes many officials look as if they are calling a bad game when actually they are allowing the same on both ends of the court but one side looks dramatically worse.

My problem is really the opposite. It's too often that our biggest and strongest are knocked out of their path....but then a little guard grazes an arm on a shot or even gets all ball and the anticipation foul is called. Also, a girl can be dribbling and the pressure is intense as the team is trying to comeback and the contact keeps moving the player out of her path...but if the girl falls down (with same amount of contact)...foul. It's the same amount of contact, falling down shouldn't have anything to do with it.

[Dr_Know]

I think most officials do a pretty good job considering the tough task. I have seen the crew that Ironman was speaking of and they do a great job, and Phipps is a favorite. I'm sure coaches are happy that he's working again. A few young guys like Gillott, Gilmore, Thompson, and Norris do a pretty darn good job, along with guys like Hopkins, Jenkins, Settles, Stevens. The guys that call a game without becoming a part of it normally gain the most respect and seem to do a better job. A few veteran guys that have been around a while feel like they run the show and are to never be questioned and seem to stick it to the coaches that disagree with them. It seems like arrogant refs are the ones that ruin it for the good guys.