What determines if a high school coach is a great coach?

[DYNAM0]

Great character is one thing but there are a lot of guys out there with great character that cant coach worth a lick. I don't think anyone is going to call them great coaches.

[sparky]

a good coach tries to develop his/her players as good people as well as good players. many former players will remember their coaches for not just what they learned on the floor/field but how these experiences carried over to the real world as adults. most good coaches are not appreciated until their players have moved on.

[trickdawg12]

Evidently just go 19-1 for one season. Even if you have won less than 30% of your games throughout your career, one season of 19-1 and a league title earns you the title of "Great Coach" in the eyes of many from a local school.

I'll get back to this.

I guess as I read the posts in this thread the word that comes to my mind is perception. If you look up the word "great" in the dictionary you are immediately introduced to a long list of explanations filled with adjectives of which the significance can be debated based on personal perception. It all boils down to what is important to the evaluator. As Chained Eagle commented, the word great has become cliche.

Personally, I can buy the "it's all about winning" approach. I understand the logic behind it. Coaches that win a lot tend to be considered better coaches than those that don't. Not to mention, coaches that win a lot tend to have more opportunity to continue to win than those that don't. However, I can't help but think that if winning is the only metric used to evaluate "greatness" than the end result is a fairly shallow assessment.

For example, can a coach only be "great" if he is a head coach? I would like to think not. As a matter of fact I would probably have to say that a coach that taught me more about the game of baseball than anyone else was indeed not a head coach. So does that exclude him from being "great"? Well, not in my mind.

Binary makes a good point about the influence provided by teachers, ministers, counselors, and parents. I understand his point, but to respond I would say . . . If preparing young men and women for life is also done by teachers, ministers, counselors, and parents and does not make a coach "great", then what makes a great teacher, minister, counselor, or parent? Does a teacher have to have a 95% pass rate? Does a minister have to save more souls than not? A counselor provide twice as much time to their students than the cross county school's counselor provides to theirs? Parents . . . well now that's an interesting metric isn't it?

Let me be completely honest with the group. I have the greatest mother and father in the history of the world. There is no comparison. How does that hit ya? And it's a true statement, but one that is driven by my own perception. Ask me why I think they're so great and I'm probably not going to provide you with too many measurables. I do think they won quite a few bowling tournaments in their prime, but not for sure how many.

Sorry. I'm just trying to provide a lighthearted rebuttal to a very good topic. It's a topic made for discussion forums that's for sure. The bottom line is, if you polled the world in hopes of defining the term "Great Coach" you would not get a consensus. That's my take.

As for you Heavy D . . . I'm not going to pretend to think that it's going to make a difference, but I do think it's fair for you to know my opinion. I've seen some of your posts over the past several weeks. You know the ones. The sarcasm laden, patronizing comments in reference to Athens High School sports with basketball and Coach Skinner being the primary focus. The act alone is simply disgusting when you consider the value, or lack thereof, that anyone reading the messages and even you are receiving as a result. But really, the bottom line is that you are inducing a negative perspective on the effort of children and in regards to Coach Skinner . . . you are talking about a husband, a father, and a very good friend to many people. Forget about what he does in the classroom or on the basketball court. Your comments are hurtful to those close to him and worthless when it comes to the purpose of these forums. Anyone that has read the related posts understands your position. Continuing to rehash your disdain for the achievements of the individuals and teams of Athens High School sports while enjoying the protection provided by internet anonymity doesn't make you anymore righteous, it makes you a coward. For dignity's sake, I suggest you put an end to it.

[balltime]

Winning,Geting kids to move on to college level are a few.But how does a coach do it year after year? Team first,willing to change to fit the current kids on a team.You have to have talented players and they must be willing to grow and learn,and great coaches for some reason are able to get kids to do whats best for team,when there is less talent great coaches get kids to go the extra mile to get all they have out of them,and blend in to form a team.I think if you look at the great coaches they always stress team and work ethic.Players change from yr. to yr but these coaches always seem to be able to get the most out of the kids they have and change when its nessesary! And there are not many great coaches or great player so its the ability to adjust and change and get all the potential out of what they have.

[Heavy D]

As for you Heavy D . . . I'm not going to pretend to think that it's going to make a difference, but I do think it's fair for you to know my opinion. I've seen some of your posts over the past several weeks. You know the ones. The sarcasm laden, patronizing comments in reference to Athens High School sports with basketball and Coach Skinner being the primary focus. The act alone is simply disgusting when you consider the value, or lack thereof, that anyone reading the messages and even you are receiving as a result. But really, the bottom line is that you are inducing a negative perspective on the effort of children and in regards to Coach Skinner . . . you are talking about a husband, a father, and a very good friend to many people. Forget about what he does in the classroom or on the basketball court. Your comments are hurtful to those close to him and worthless when it comes to the purpose of these forums. Anyone that has read the related posts understands your position. Continuing to rehash your disdain for the achievements of the individuals and teams of Athens High School sports while enjoying the protection provided by internet anonymity doesn't make you anymore righteous, it makes you a coward. For dignity's sake, I suggest you put an end to it.

First of all, where in my post did you see me name a coach? Where did I say anything about children? Since you do not know me, how do you know what I meant by local? If my post hit home to you and irritated a nerve, then maybe you should do some self examintions and change what you qualify as a great coach? I don't know what else to tell you. As for you calling me a coward, well if you think I am afraid of you, or any of your very good friends simply pm me and you will quickly learn that I am not. In the future just remember that if you are going to make personal attacks such as the above on me, then you certainly should not complain when you perceive, or more accurately fabricate in your mind from the posts of others, such attacks on you or your 'close friends.'

[wipala]

The answer to this post is two words, George Heller
wipalawalt

[Chief Kdogg]

The answer to this post is two words, George Heller
wipalawalt

Well how bout one word, koondogger!


JMTG

[trickdawg12]

First of all, where in my post did you see me name a coach? Where did I say anything about children? Since you do not know me, how do you know what I meant by local? If my post hit home to you and irritated a nerve, then maybe you should do some self examintions and change what you qualify as a great coach? I don't know what else to tell you. As for you calling me a coward, well if you think I am afraid of you, or any of your very good friends simply pm me and you will quickly learn that I am not. In the future just remember that if you are going to make personal attacks such as the above on me, then you certainly should not complain when you perceive, or more accurately fabricate in your mind from the posts of others, such attacks on you or your 'close friends.'

I assumed you would respond like this. It doesn't surprise me at all. You know exactly who you were talking about. By denying it you're only making yourself look worse. Just because you don't use specifics doesn't mean you're not identifying a certain individual or group. The children I refer to are the ones that spent this winter on the basketball floor giving everything they had to achieve success. An achievement that you undermine when you make posts referencing weak schedules and condescending expectations. You owe me nothing. I don't expect an apology. I don't want to debate your opinion. It is yours. You can have it. My response to you has nothing to do with coaching or sports. It is about respect. I was pointing out that by reiterating your opinion on this topic you are providing no value to these forums. Instead, you are attacking peoples emotions. As for calling you a coward. I am surprised that an individual who is so well versed in vague monologue would have missed the point of my statement. I didn't call you a coward, my friend. I said that continuing to attempt to devalue the effort or status of (ANY TEAM, ANY INDIVIDUAL, ANY SCHOOL) via the internet (where nobody knows who you are) makes you a coward. The choice is ultimately up to you. In response to your suggestion . . . sure. I'll remember to be careful with my perception and fabrication in regards to others posts. No problem. But you need to remember that the next time you begin to attempt to make a detrimental statement about a coach, player, team, or school that you are insulting real people and not just internet aliases.

[hoosier3434]

I think a great coach gets the most that he can out of each player on his team and helps them to improve over the course of the season. They bring the group together and teach them to play/win/lose as a team and to represent their school/family/community in a positive manner both on an off the court and in the classroom, in short they become a better person for playing for you. I also think that a great coach puts a program in place that teaches all aspects of the game and develops talent from the youngest levels to the varsity. If you are able to do this the wins will follow. Realistically, you aren't going to win a state title or league title every single year unless you are at one of those dreaded private schools who cherry pick their players but if the program is ran correctly you will be in the mix for a league title and quality tourny run every season. There have been several great coaches who never appeared in a state tourny and there haver been several sub-par coaches (satch sullinger, IMO) who have won state titles and national coach of the year awards.

i cant say anything better than this what has been said is exactly how you determine a great high school coach.

[amazinghocks]

I thought Heavy D was talking about Eastern ....

[Heavy D]

I thought Heavy D was talking about Eastern ....

Some people are so touchy about their coach, and their program that any, what they see as a negative, post seems to those people to be directed toward them. Maybe shows what they think is the truth about them I guess. At the least, they add some transparency to their true feelings about the supposed accomplishments of those programs. Funny thing is, by responding to my post she shedded some negative light on her coach. Kinda added some fuel to the fire of anyone who wants to debate whether he is a good coach or not IMO.

On the other hand, a few years ago there were many very negative posts about Trimble and their football schedule. Comments like, ...they don't play anyone... and ...only 9-1 team to miss the playoffs... Yet not one person got on here and said, boo hoo you are bashing the accomplishments of children and discrediting a fine man who coaches them... or, ...his wife is upset about what you said and is thinking of leaving him... No the Trimble people simply said, "you are welcome to your opinion." Kind of the same thing when people said, ...Nelsonville hasn't won a playoff game in this decade... The people who are fans of those programs know that they have established programs, and coaches so there is no need to get upset about such comments. They laugh more often than not when negative things are said. They simply determine if what is being said is the truth, and if a change needs to be made, or if it is just factless insults being thrown out.

[Howard Cosell]

It seems that certain posters from certain schools have a whiney mentality to begin with and they read into the posts of others and think we are talking about them when really we are just posting about stuff in general. I am thinking they must have a really high opinion of themselves or maybe they just use this method to call attention to themselves and their school. It seems if you have green, red, or gold in your school color scheme this is really a problem....

[Heavy D]

It seems that certain posters from certain schools have a whiney mentality to begin with and they read into the posts of others and think we are talking about them when really we are just posting about stuff in general. I am thinking they must have a really high opinion of themselves or maybe they just use this method to call attention to themselves and their school. It seems if you have green, red, or gold in your school color scheme this is really a problem....

I was thinking just the opposite. They may hide behind that facade, but in reality they have a low opinion of themselves, and when ever they think that is being brought to the surface by someone they lash out at them. Even when they are not the topic of discussion.

[trickdawg12]

My response was directed towards a series of negative comments made by the poster in reference to the sports programs at Athens High School. My point was simple . . . to repetitively share an opinion that devalues the accomplishments or status of an individual or group of individuals is classless and offers no value to these forums. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I'm not against an opposing view, but to sarcastically reiterate that view at every possible opportunity is malicious and unmerited. I cannot comment on what happened a few years ago; however, anyone that finds themselves making constant condescending posts towards people in general should be ashamed.

If you feel that opinion is derived from a "whiney mentality", that's fine. I'm ok with that and you have no reason to feel bad about it. On the other hand, if you follow me around these forums and repeatedly make sly comments about my whiney mentality than in my opinion . . . that makes you a coward.

[eagle25]

My response was directed towards a series of negative comments made by the poster in reference to the sports programs at Athens High School. My point was simple . . . to repetitively share an opinion that devalues the accomplishments or status of an individual or group of individuals is classless and offers no value to these forums. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I'm not against an opposing view, but to sarcastically reiterate that view at every possible opportunity is malicious and unmerited. I cannot comment on what happened a few years ago; however, anyone that finds themselves making constant condescending posts towards people in general should be ashamed.

If you feel that opinion is derived from a "whiney mentality", that's fine. I'm ok with that and you have no reason to feel bad about it. On the other hand, if you follow me around these forums and repeatedly make sly comments about my whiney mentality than in my opinion . . . that makes you a coward.

What a whiner?

[Heavy D]

Me thinks someone has gone a little coo-coo Paranoia will destroy ya.

[datchillicav]

District Championships. State Championships. Regional Championships. League Championships. In that order.
District Championships measure how many times you have a "very good" team.
State Championships measure how many times you have an "elite" or "all-time" team
Regional Championships measure how many "great" teams you have
League Championships how many times you have a "good" team that is better than the schools in similar circumstances for the most part geographically and enrollment wise.
Sectional Championships mean nothing IMO.

Off the court, How many players you send to college. Including D2 and 3 as well. Also, the conduct in which you run your program is very important but it is harder to measure.

I think the underlined part of your post is important. Sometimes league championships can be misleading when you are a lot bigger than most of the other schools in your league.

Definately agree. Thats why they are less important to me than anything in the tourney. Also, I didn't mention, which should be obvious, the overall record of the coach.

[Heavy D]

^^^ You make some great sense. Overall record is obviously important. Afterall, we are talking about coaching here, so wins and losses have to count for something. No as far as league championships go, it also depends on the league you are in, and where you are number wise as far as enrollment goes.

[trickdawg12]

District Championships. State Championships. Regional Championships. League Championships. In that order.
District Championships measure how many times you have a "very good" team.
State Championships measure how many times you have an "elite" or "all-time" team
Regional Championships measure how many "great" teams you have
League Championships how many times you have a "good" team that is better than the schools in similar circumstances for the most part geographically and enrollment wise.
Sectional Championships mean nothing IMO.

Off the court, How many players you send to college. Including D2 and 3 as well. Also, the conduct in which you run your program is very important but it is harder to measure.

I think the underlined part of your post is important. Sometimes league championships can be misleading when you are a lot bigger than most of the other schools in your league.

Definately agree. Thats why they are less important to me than anything in the tourney. Also, I didn't mention, which should be obvious, the overall record of the coach.

So can you put a metric on any of these categories? For example . . . how many state championships or a ratio per season does it take to make a great coach? I think when you try to do that you'll get a better understanding of the complexity of the issue. What if a coach wins 90% of the games throughout their career but never wins a game in the sectionl tournament? What if a coach wins five state championships but never wins the league? Of course these are hypothetical scenarios. I'm not saying it's impossible to develop such a matrix just difficult to visualize. Also, if this "point system" was developed I believe many would be surprised as to the number of coaches that can be considered "great".

[baller3]

datchillicav: Using your own criteria, your own coach doesnt rate all that high because he only has two district titles and one state title for all his years of coaching and yet he has consistently put a competitive product on the court year in and out.

As this year's NCAA tournament is proving, any time you get into a one and done format, anything can and often does happen. That should never sully the reputation of a coach or program based on upsets here and there. The best teams dont always win the state or even regional.

I consider Ron Hall one of the very best coaches in the state in my lifetime. He had a two year record at Zane Trace in the late 60s of 52-2 and never won a state championship. Lost a regional championship when he was 26-0 one year and lost a state semi final the next when he was again 26-0. He also took Miami Trace to the Final Four, and I believe Adena to the Regionals. A lot of coaches would have to get in line behind him when greatness is being discussed.

How about greatness over TIME? How many coaches are in the exclusive 500 club and how many even stay at it long enough to do that? In this area the list is short but in my mind defines greatness: Larry Jordan, Arch Justus at Portsmouth Clay, Charlie McAfee at Athens, Jim Osborne at GAHS, Carl Wolfe at several schools, Norm Persin at several as well are a few that come to mind.

Coaching is more than teaching basketball and wins and losses. It is using athletics to prepare young men and women for life, and I have sat and listened fascinated hearing former players now in their 50s and even 60s talking about things a former coach taught them that they took into their later jobs, marriages and raising families. That, IMO is the definition of greatness.

I remember telling a football coach one time that if his teams never won a single game I would still rather have him influencing my children than anyone I could think of.

Great Coach: Ron Hall was a coaching legend. He is a good person and I've enjoyed talking to him a few times over the years. From what I've been told he was one of the best X & O coaches ever around here... A lot of people don't know that our own Chillicothe Coach Gary Kellough coached with him in the 1970's.. Both at Adena and Miami Trace Coach Hall and Coach K lead their teams to unbelievable seasons.. If you've ever been in the locker room with Coach K you know this man knows his X & O's.. Coach K also learned a lot of stuff from the great Corky Miller. Both coaches helped develop our very own Great Coach. I see quotes from above how our coach only has 3 district titles. Coach K had many good years at Zane Trace and ZT won several league and sectional titles. He won 250 plus games at ZT.. Many great memories at the school but yes tournament play wasn't so fortunate. ZT kids have continued to struggle getting it done in tournament play. Sometimes you need a bounce to go your way here and there and it just hasn't happened at ZT in a long time in the districts. I don't think it will happen next year or the year after..

Coach K moves onto Chillicothe. IMO, Chillicothe was a sleeping giant. 3 district titles, Regional Championship, Regional Runner Up, and a State Title in 5 years is pretty impressive if you ask me. Coach K has led this group to greatness. Anytime you win league, sectional, district, regional and state championships and have nearly 400 wins you can probably say he is a great coach.

But this is not what makes him great. If you believe in his system and hardwork great things can happen. I'm not only talking about on the basketball court but off it as well. If you can play for this man on the court you can succeed in life. He teaches you so many great things that transfer over in life after bball. Maybe thats the reason he's had a lot of players that have become teachers, doctors, and successful people in the work field.

Last, When you add all of this stuff up its obvious our Coach K is a coaching legend.