"The People's Elite 8" week 3 results and updates

[pfloyd]

Bingo dave ... I agree ... as you pointed out it is a difficult "line" to walk ... I see so many teams that in my little mind would benefit from NOT so much "catering" to the big and his needs BUT doing as you say the best for the TEAM ...

[pfloyd]

... I just think sometimes coaches themselves adhere too closely to the adage that "you can't coach size" imo you have a kid with size in the early grades you coach these kids up big time due to their potential at the post high school level in all phase of individual development (inside/outside game) ... but I'm going to make sure the bigs learn/KNOW the true post position as well ...as you say these kids DO/WILL have the opportunity to go beyond hs due to their size ... they will need the entire package of being able to put the ball on the floor, show a perimeter game ...

[Space Cowboy]

One problem a true "big" man has is that every ref seems to be watching their every move.
You have a center that is 6-8, 6-9 and he is surrounded by other kids that go 5-11 to 6-3, what player out on that floor are the refs gonna have their attention on?
Maybe the big player is subconsiously shooting the 3s out of self- preservation.

Just a thought

[Excoach78]

I think a true post players are on my EXTINCT list. I am an OLD school excoach, I know the game has changed, but give me a BIG DOMINATE post player and I will show you a winner.

Pfloyd, you are right, the success of a team may not center around a post player but most good teams that will go far in LEAGUE and TOURNY have one or two.

Trojandave, if 6-5, 6-6, 6-7, players are a dime a dozen in your area we would like to buy one for a $1.00. We have good size 6-4, 6-2 range but we have never had a true BIG.IMO if we had a true post player 6-5, 6-6, to go with our team now, we would really be hard to beat. This is not taking anything away from our team, we are 11-1, just saying.

This has turned into a very good post about "BIGS". I like it!!!! I could talk playing in the paint all day, and might be back but have to go now.

I still say good POST PLAY is an lost ART and thats to bad. GO TEAM WARREN WARRIORS!!!!!

[trojandave]

ExCoach78: I live in Portsmouth, but the geographical area I was referencing was outside the SE District........in the Central District, for example, I'm quite sure that kids 6-5 to 6-7 are pretty common, considering that the CD has many more schools than the SE District and a good number of D1 schools. Same could be said for the SW or NE District........more schools, more D1 or D2 schools, and predictably more kids 6-5 to 6-7. Kids that size are not common in our district.

I have seen it for a long time in the SE District........the overwhelming majority of kids 6-5 to 6-7 have been coached to be true post players, and within the goals and objectives of the team, that may be fine.......but as far as that kid having a skill package to go big time D1, it is very rare. It is refreshing to see kids like Andrew Burleson (6-7, Wright State) and Cam Miller (6-8, Marshall) of Wheelersburg that were allowed by Coach Barrick to expand their skills to not just in the paint. Also look at Jalen Ragland (6-6) of Chillicothe.......going to UTEP, not because of his post up skills, but because he has a nice perimeter game, and I give Coach Kellough credit for allowing Jalen to play to his strengths.

Dante Jackson (6-5, Xavier) of Greenfield McClain comes to mind........Coach Van Matre allowed Dante to play basically all 5 positions.........and he played them all well.......I think for McClain to have been as good as they were with Jackson, it had to be that way.......if Coach Van Matre had limited Dante to just post play, the Tigers would not have been nearly as good. Dante could post up of course, very well, but he could kill you from the perimeter as well.

Look also at Jake Kretzer (6-6) of Waverly.......another kid that has been allowed to expand his skill package outside of the paint.......haven't watched him this year, but I would assume that he has scored his share of points in the post, but he has been a big weapon for the Tigers from outside as well. Coach Robertson is allowing Jake to play to his strengths.

Unfortunately, we don't see this very often in the SE District.......but we do have coaches who will allow certain bigs to be more than just a post player.........if a kid has a varied skill package, it makes him much harder to defend, and in turn should make his team better.

Finally, ExCoach78, you are right........true post play is becoming more rare in today's basketball........and I think the majority of fans think that it is still and should be a very important part of the game.

[danicalifornia]

Good post trojandave. There are a lot of successful players from our area who have the good size, so lets not forget that, but also there are tons that do absolutely nothing that try to play that way.

I watched a game earlier this season where it was a 6'7 vs. 6'8, both knocked down a 3 and I can count on one hand how many rebounds they combined for. Sad thing is, both are athletic and you can tell knew the game, just they refused to use their height and overall strength as an advantage.

I really liked how Dion McKinley of Portsmouth played when I saw him a few weeks back against Chillicothe. He was able to knock down a couple of 3's, but he also would go inside and battle with Malik London as well. It was really refreshing to see. I think more skilled big men(with range of course) should take a look at that film and see how he didn't force any shots, just took what was coming to him on the break.

[Peake]

I agree with 99% of what is being said. I think back to Chesapeake and Delimpo (6'7) was a traditional post, Zeb Best (6'4), Matt Rucker (6'8), and now Collin Kennedy (6'7), though he can step out and shot it better then the others mentioned. Though we do and have had players like Aaron Gossett (6'4), and presently Austin McMaster (6'6) who were/are guards.

I think another name missing from this list is Nick Aldridge 6'8 kid from South Webster, probably the most skilled 6'8 kid I have seen in this area for a long time.

Dion is a perfect example, excellent outside shot, though imo he is around the 6'4-6'5 range.

Burleson---not 6'7 imo. I would say more 6'5 1/2 6'6 max.

[32, 16, 6]

Ex Coach: I agree, I just looked back. It seems that Warren had two "BIGS" as far back as the early 2000's. It might have been Blue Moon's junior year? I'm not real sure any way Chad Spence, and Isaac Ward are the two I remember. From there its just one 6'5"or better at a time.

The three point shot certainly has changed the game since you hit the high school hardwood. The other differance I see overall is that the "zone" is becoming obsolete.

In my own opinion, coaching on individual skills is something that is worked on most in the off season. I am not in practice on a daily basis, but from what I have watched the past two seasons is what pfloyd is seeing. I see alot of strieght up play, not alot of sitting going on. Dylan Leffingwell plays a good fundamental game. Alot of the time, (not always) he will chin the ball, sit, (find the defender with his backside) establish his dribble, and roll to the weakside. He has size, but by no means is he the 6'5", 6'6" big body player that other schools seem to have. (Must be the C8?)

In the ExCoach Era, I remember Dennis Ward (Isaac's Dad), and Bob Ward (uncle). Dennis dominated the hardwood in the late 70's at what 6'5" or 6'6". Bob liked to ice the wing for the mear 2pts, he might have enjoyed the three point arc. Terry Coffman came a little later on, but he is 6'4" ish. His son Shawn, was a forward, or a 4 as we now see it. Alot of changes over the years.

Parkersburg High School has Zach Grosenbacher, he's another 6'8" three point shooter. I don't think he likes the old style in the paint play either.

[trojandave]

danicalifornia: I'm glad you mentioned Dion......I somehow had forgot about him.......he is more and more expanding his game........he told me yesterday that the most important thing to him right now is to win........he wants to do whatever his coaches want to help the team be its best.......I told Dion I was really glad to hear him say that.

Being only a junior, I think that Dion hasn't come close to his ceiling........I would love to see him go big time D1.......he has the work ethic in the off season.........but for him to say that winning is more important right now shows that he is putting aside his ego for the betterment of the team.

[Peake]

I really like Dion's game. He is an excellent kid too. His 3 point shot is very smooth. 90% of the time he can take his defender outside and knock down the 3. It takes defenders in AAU about two trips down the floor to figure out they better get a hand in his face or he will hit the 3 all night lol. His post game is also improving. He is a much better imo face to the basket player, but I am sure he is working on playing with his back to the basket.

I think Dion is a very good player, and I agree he is only going to get better,, but imo he needs to grow to 6'6-'67 if he wants to be D1. I could be wrong and I hope I am because there is no better kid to root for then Dion.

[trojandave]

peake: You brought up a good example in Nick Aldridge.......definitely a kid with some good skills outside the paint.......and from the Chesapeake teams I have seen through the years, their bigs were more traditionally post players.......but McMaster is a kid who is tough to defend because he can play outside and also go inside........I know that all of Chesapeake's players, regardless of size, are coached to get up the floor in a hurry because the Panthers like to take advantage of other teams' lagging up the floor.

[pfloyd]

... I guess one of the points that I didn't do a very good job of emphasizing is that I fully understand "expanding" the individual big man skills to prep him for the next level - HAS TO BE DONE ... BUT from my view in the Cheap Seats over the years is that kids who do play in the post don't know the nuances of the position that would make them sooooo much more effective ... point I was trying to get across was that imo I really don't think the bigs are being taught how to be a "post player" ... I'm not sure that there are many coaches (I hate saying that because that appears to say ALL coaches - THAT would be a wrong statement on my part)... wish all players AND coaches would sit and take apart the "skills of the post position" - getting/staying wide in the post , how to ask for the ball where YOU want it, keeping the ball "UP" rebounding, how to take it "thru" the defender,etc. etc. etc. etc. and a biggy in my book "How to feel the defender/defense, what does that tell you as the offensive player as to what YOU can/need to do - reading the defense/reacting to the defense" ...

[trojandave]

pfloyd: You brought up an excellent point about a big keeping the ball "up"........I see it over and over and over........a big with a recognizable advantage vs. a defender bring the ball "down" to his opponent's level instead of keeping the ball "up" which makes him very difficult to deal with, either maintaining a rebound or sticking a putback.

As far as a big playing defense, I think Malik London may be the finest defensive big I have ever seen in the SE District........he is that good........blocking 10-12 shots a game, rarely in foul trouble, and a true game changer in the paint........love watching him play defense (except vs. my Trojans), because many kids today don't sell out on the D end of the court like he does.

[Coach Kelley]

what happened to the 'hook shot'??? This is a great post, one in which we were discussing at practice the other day. I think so much glamour is given to the 3 ball and being able to knock it down, that kids think it's a waste of time to post up and work at it. Another area that has contributed to poorer post play, i feel, is that many schools don't focus on entry passes into the post. I will be the first to admit, we don't spend enough time working on the skill set during season. However, when I came through, those were things I worked on in summer and early in the season. We spent 25 minutes the other day on posting up, giving the hand to recieve the pass, and then passing into the post....you would've thought we killed them.

I've found that kids aren't willing to pay attention to detail as closely...I was a sponge, and I can still tell you what my gradeschool coaches taught me. In high school, I played the post as well as point, usually 2 guard at 6'3"...in College, I played the 1,2. However, I was able to post up at times because I was taught the footwork, the hand positioning, the passing skills from the post that I could be affective.

What about the Leslie kid from Northwest? That kid had great post moves and footwork...he was 6'4?

Hope I'm not too off topic, but made me smile when I saw that people besides myself care about these fundamentals!

[Ball4]

I think alot being said is true but I would like to point out that the Kennedy kid from Chesapeake is being coached to play the paint. If anyone saw him play from last year to now they would see a remarkable difference in his play. Yes its true he can step out and hit the 15 to 18 ft. jumper, but if you watch the scheme of Coach Davis' offense he is obivious a post player that has improved 200%. And also I don't think we've seen his best yet.

[4thgoal]

Leslie was a nice inside player. Stegman (6'6") from Wheelersburg also has good moves around the basket with both hands and keeps the ball at or above his shoulders.

[pfloyd]

... please don't interpret what I started on this thread as "ALL coaches not teaching their kids how to play in the post" - there are fine coaches that DO - BUT ... many do not ...

Coach Kelley ... that pass into the post is soooooo critical too AND probably just as important is THAT 2nd pass BACK INTO the post after it is given up ... so many times I'm saying under my breath - get it to him, kick it back out (post repositions) GIVE IT RIGHT BACK TO HIM LOL ... I love to see great communication between the PG and the post player - got to have a PG who understands HOW/WHERE to get the ball into the post , a C who knows how to ask for the ball = STEP 1 most don't do STEP 2 : C kicking the ball back to a repositioned PG followed by that C who lets his defender relax/THEN repositions himself to get that all important entry pass from the PG ... that C HAS TO work HARDER after he kicks it out , THAT'S WHEN he will see the benefits of his work - off balance defender, strong positioned C who can take his defender where he wants ...

... great stuff guys ... Coach Kelley - Pfloyd and his better half WILL BE taking in this one tomorrow night at the Oven - I will definitely stop by the bench to shake your hand ...

[Ball4]

Great comment pfloyd!

[peeblesfan97]

Peebles 84 West Union 68, Indians led in scoring by Andy Countryman with 31 and Blake Justice with 22.

[32, 16, 6]

pfloyd, yes, yes, and yes...In total agreement. If you watch div 3 and 4 college players in the post, you will see the focus. They focus on where the ball is, where the defender is, and know where they are. They will sometimes have a hand back and a hand up. Asking with their eyes, and an open hand, get wide and take up the floor its yours, but only for a little while. (:

London has potential, but to play on a college level I'm guessing a red shirt, a weight program, and some instruction. He has what colleges want and that is the height. They know how to develope the rest. IMO, right now he plays "skinny". (no disrespect intended) One of my talking head friends would like to see him play volleyball. She is determined that with his build right now he would be awesome at at it. Of course, she says a college basketball program will ruin that. (Her example is DJ Cunningham, UNC Ashville has made sure he is well fed, and he really works the paint now, before he was just taller than everybody else. He could just reach up and grab it.)

Coaches this day and age have alot on their plates. To build successful programs, you start early, and you stay late. Thus the year round programs. Its not an easy job. If it were as easy as typing on the puter, we would be in the gym right now.