Defiance 49 Cleveland Central Catholic 45 OT

[anderson2012]

As of this morning, 71% of the votes on ESPN.com said it was a bad call.

Talked to a college coach this morning, said it was a bad call. I have talked to 3 different current HS coaches, all have said its a bad call.

The game has changed. Better athletes, bigger, faster, stronger. Rules needs to evolve along with the game.

No disrespect intended, but from my experience more and more coaches today in the HS ranks are lacking knowledge about specific rules and even mechanics of rules. How many coaches today know the five correctable errors? While I don't doubt those you talked to know the game of basketball very well, I have to call into question their reasoning for saying it was a bad call. I also have to call into question the credibility of citing an ESPN.com poll. How many average joe's across the nation know the specific rules for HS ball as opposed to the NBA?

Unfortunately, we're in the era of "entertainment basketball". What flies in the NBA that wouldn't normally in HS is unfortunately becoming more and more acceptable in arenas such as AAU, Showcases, City Leagues, etc because it creates excitement. Kids are impressionable and they want to be like the guys in the NBA. Sadly, because HS basketball is shaped today to be as different as possible from the NBA with regards to rules, kids forget that the game is bigger than themselves - especially at this stage. If this were the NBA, he'd be getting praise (if he were to do this on a consistent basis) and might get a shoe deal.

Side note, I just thought of an "infamous" example from the 2003 Fiesta Bowl. The Pass Interference call in the first overtime on Ohio St's possession that extended the game. I mention this because when ABC Sports cuts to replays of the call, Dan Fouts cries "bad call! bad call!". While Dan Fouts is a good source for knowledge of the game, he was 30 years removed from any involvement (coaching/playing) in the college game and NFL's rules for PI were (and I believe still are) different from that of the NCAA. Furthermore, Dan Fouts doesn't have a football officiating license. This is my point: outlets that make for sports entertainment purposes generally don't call on credible sources to explain whether a call is good or bad. I respect your sources, but I think to a certain extent the general rationale behind polling the majority and calling on coach perspectives is fallacious, and this has been an age-old tale in amateur and professional sports today.

[danicalifornia]

As of this morning, 71% of the votes on ESPN.com said it was a bad call.

Talked to a college coach this morning, said it was a bad call. I have talked to 3 different current HS coaches, all have said its a bad call.

The game has changed. Better athletes, bigger, faster, stronger. Rules needs to evolve along with the game.

No disrespect intended, but from my experience more and more coaches today in the HS ranks are lacking knowledge about specific rules and even mechanics of rules. How many coaches today know the five correctable errors? While I don't doubt those you talked to know the game of basketball very well, I have to call into question their reasoning for saying it was a bad call. I also have to call into question the credibility of citing an ESPN.com poll. How many average joe's across the nation know the specific rules for HS ball as opposed to the NBA?

Unfortunately, we're in the era of "entertainment basketball". What flies in the NBA that wouldn't normally in HS is unfortunately becoming more and more acceptable in arenas such as AAU, Showcases, City Leagues, etc because it creates excitement. Kids are impressionable and they want to be like the guys in the NBA. Sadly, because HS basketball is shaped today to be as different as possible from the NBA with regards to rules, kids forget that the game is bigger than themselves - especially at this stage. If this were the NBA, he'd be getting praise (if he were to do this on a consistent basis) and might get a shoe deal.

Side note, I just thought of an "infamous" example from the 2003 Fiesta Bowl. The Pass Interference call in the first overtime on Ohio St's possession that extended the game. I mention this because when ABC Sports cuts to replays of the call, Dan Fouts cries "bad call! bad call!". While Dan Fouts is a good source for knowledge of the game, he was 30 years removed from any involvement (coaching/playing) in the college game and NFL's rules for PI were (and I believe still are) different from that of the NCAA. Furthermore, Dan Fouts doesn't have a football officiating license. This is my point: outlets that make for sports entertainment purposes generally don't call on credible sources to explain whether a call is good or bad. I respect your sources, but I think to a certain extent the general rationale behind polling the majority and calling on coach perspectives is fallacious, and this has been an age-old tale in amateur and professional sports today.

Good post. I can definitely see both sides to this, I still think it's not a needed call, but I understand why some people think it is. I'm also the same person who routinely asks my official friends on rules to be the best fan/coach I can be.

[anderson2012]

I think debating the call can go on forever. By the book, it's a good call.

Now the rule that's in the books... I think that's where we should be asking questions.

[C-Bolt]

Actually the NBA has the same rule.Sometimes they call it, sometimes they don't,all depends on the referee who's calling it. I think it was pretty clean but he just got too excited and pulled a little too hard on the rim making his legs swing higher up than they normally would have with the momentum is what got him T'd up.even with that the turnovers and missed free throws is what got them beat in the end.

[getright]

I was at this game, and to dunk the ball with that much force at that speed.. your momentum is going to swing forward once you dunk it, and whenever your hanging on the rim its going to swing back. If he was to let go of the rim as soon as he dunked it i think he would've been hurt, by not being able to control his bodies momentum. If you watch the video on SportsCenter he does not attempt to do a chin up like you all are saying, its clear. Right call by the rule book, but to make that call at that time in the game is just wrong. Horrible call in my opinion.

[C-Bolt]

Seems like I remember the same guy dunking the ball earlier in the game with a lot of speed not even touching the rim,probably should have done it again and they might have won because there was nobody underneath him.Also he was yelling and pounding his chest which might have rubbed the ref the wrong way.I remember a Logan player being t'd up for that this year after dunking

[RoadMan]

I too was there, immediately thought "T". Looked like the official was looking to see if anyone was underneath so as to avoid the call. The video everyone is talking about it looks like his elbows bend after being straight, after the swing under the basket. Someone earlier talked about physics - so my question is directed at them - If the player is swinging in an arc, is the centrifugal force going to keep his arms straight or bend them? I would think that the weight would keep his arms straight, so if they bend one could make the logical conclusion that he pulled himself up toward the rim, thus the bending of the arms at the elbows.
Also, does anyone know for a FACT that the T was for the hanging on the rim versus the chest thumping afterward? Just curious, as this might be the $64,000.00 question.

[C-Bolt]

Every article I have looked at says it was hanging on the rim,but I have watched the replay over and over on my DVR and it sounds like the whistle comes well after he comes down and is heading back up court.I would love to see an article from the referee to see what he was thinking.Update just found an article quoting an OHSAA executive stating it was for "hanging on rim with nobody underneath and pulling himself up and swung excessively",It also looks like he does a little kick out at the top of is swing that could have urked the ref.

[mikepike]

If the player does a layup (boring) instead of a celebration-style dunk (exciting!) his team is celebrating a state championship. Shouldn't create the situation, the ref doesn't make the call.

[trojandave]

Congratulations to a scrappy Defiance Bulldogs team on their state championship......as far as the call, it was the right call under the rule, but I don't like the rule. The kid picked absolutely the wrong time to do it, at the OHSAA state tournament, where sportsmanship and respecting the game is strongly emphasized by the OHSAA to the game officials. I feel bad for the kid, because CCC was in very much control of that game with less than a minute to go.

[pembrook burrows III]

Great game, but bad call. The call was not made in accordance with the official rule in my view.

Rule 10, Section 3, Article 3 of the National Federation of State High School Associations rulebook, which Ohio goes by, states the following:

"A player shall not grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury; dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball."

The key is whether grabbing the rim was reasonably done to prevent injury to the student athlete. The intent of the rule is to safeguard the player. Accordingly, when interpreting the rule, the benefit of the doubt on preventing injury should go to the player, especially since we are dealing with high school students. There is no requirement in the rule for another player to be under the rim at the time it is grasped. In fact, this would be a pointless interpretation because a kid cannot see what may be going on behind him. Injury could occur from falling on another player under the rim, but it also could occur if the sheer momentum of the player would cause his body to fly uncontrollably into the basket stanchion or to fall awkwardly to the floor. In this case, I believe the speed and force of the dunk could have been dangerous to the student athlete if he had not grasped the rim to stop his momentum. Though some have accused the player of doing a "chin-up", if you watch the film and carefully stop it, his chin is never above the bottom of the net. His head stayed at essentially the same level from the time of the dunk until he lets go of the rim. I have seen players do chin-ups on the rim before, and this did not happen here. Rather, as soon as the player's momentum had been arrested, his body swung back and he dropped safely to the floor.

This is in fact exactly as the player described it himself in the postgame interview:

“I got to the rim so fast, I wasn’t going to be able to land. It was kind of difficult for me. As I swung on the rim, it was kind of difficult for me to come down. I didn’t want to tweak an ankle or tear something."

I understand and value the need for sportsmanship. But sportsmanship must be secondary to player safety. If this is truly a rule to protect the safety of the student athlete, in my opinion, it was poorly applied here. Why force a potentially more dangerous situation upon a high school student?

The OHSAA explanation contradicted the plain wording of the rule quoted above. Denny Morris, the Ohio High School Athletic Association’s Basketball Director of Official Development, told the Northeast Ohio Media Group in a statement why the technical foul was called:

“A player can hang from the rim if he is protecting himself from injury if a player or players are underneath him," Morris said. “There were not any players underneath him, and he pulled himself up and swung excessively.”

Sorry, Denny. The rule does not require other players to be underneath the grasping player. It contemplates other dangerous situations that may not involve falling upon another player. And the player in question did not pull himself up or do a chin-up.

It's a safety rule. The OHSAA should tell its guys to enforce it that way.

[rockbiter]

It was the right call and I respect the official for having the guts to call it. The rule book does not say you can chin yourself on the rim, so the fans can applaud you. There was nobody under him. I knew as soon as I saw it that it would be called.

[C-Bolt]

Maybe the high school rules federation should change a dunk to just one point and let them swing, pull and kick all they want, then they could get rid their selves these headaches

[pembrook burrows III]

One more point - the official immediately under the basket, and in the best position to interpret the rule on the need to avoid player injury, did not make the call. The guy underneath had a great look at it. It was the official farthest away from the play at half court who decided to be the hero.

http://usatodayhss.com/2015/cleveland-c ... basketball

[Raider6309]

Terrible call, if you call this, why wasn't their a T for the defiance player taughting CCC after he hit the 3 in overtime. If your gonna be a bad ref, be bad both ways. In person I didn't think the dunk deserved a T but the 3 was a clear cut T to me

[RoadMan]

Interesting how a different point of view may make a difference in how the play is viewed:

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/03/ohio-st ... on-lillard

[nybuckeye99]

Looking at the video multiple times, I can see how the technical could be called. Momentum would take the person forward. The player appears to deliberately extend his body beyond horizontal with this feet appearing to come even with his head (if not extend higher) which could lead a ref to believe he was doing more than protecting himself. Had he just thrown down the ball and let go with his body carrying him forward, I suspect no foul would be called.

[pembrook burrows III]

It is a bit ironic that on the same evening last Saturday, only a few hours after the Central Catholic player got teed up, a Notre Dame player in the NCAA Tournament made almost the exact same offensive move and dunk against the big, bad Kentucky Wildcats, as captured in this YouTube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2VkPbxfnKE

Of course, nobody called a technical foul on the Notre Dame player, nor did any announcer even raise that as a possibility, despite the fact that Mr. Connaughton kicks one leg up to a point at which his entire foot is above the level of the rim. There was not a soul under the basket. And this occurred under an NCAA rule that also makes it illegal to grasp the rim except when “trying to prevent an obvious injury to self or others.” A provocateur might suggest that the only differentiating factor in the calls was that one call involved an inner-city player from Cleveland competing against a bunch of small town kids from Defiance, while the other was an underdog, undersized Irishman taking on a lineup of future NBA studs. But I will let others debate that. I'll stick with "bad call on Lillard" and let it go at that.

[nybuckeye99]

You mean an inner city kid attending a high school with a tuition cost at about 80 percent of the tuition charged by The Ohio State University? Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. Most inner city kids don't have an extra $32,000 laying around to attend high school. And comparing high school to college is NOT an even comparison. College athletics is big business, high school athletics (hopefully) aspires to something beyond big business/entertainment. Sportsmanship should be encouraged. Showboating should be discouraged. What exactly is wrong with playing with class and respect for your competition?

[Raider6309]

Mooney is $7,000 for your first child and $6,000 for 2nd, $3,500 for 3rd and no charge after that per year. Booster do pay for kids to go there. I think you can get financial aid from the state