New Boston at Clay 01-21-11

[tigers1]

RR you always bash on your head coach, first it was soccer now basketball. When can we put allittle blame on the kids.
Let face it the coach can only coach what he has on his team. As i said after the first meeting, there is no true point guard
on the floor for either team. It was a great game between two team that wont go very far in the Tourneys.

[yabbadabbadoo]

Those would probably work Jimmy but they are being told to not even look to shoot. You can't do that. College teams even have trouble stallinmg the ball and he expects these kids to do that up to the last 5 minutes of a game. They lose all the rhythm they had and usually end up losing a game they were up 8-10 points.

[yabbadabbadoo]

RR you always bash on your head coach, first it was soccer now basketball. When can we put allittle blame on the kids.
Let face it the coach can only coach what he has on his team. As i said after the first meeting, there is no true point guard
on the floor for either team. It was a great game between two team that wont go very far in the Tourneys.

How can you blame the kids when they are being told by there coach not to run there offense? It is obvious over the last four years that they cannot run the weave, yet he still has them do it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that.

You are probably right in there is no true point guard on the team, but with the weave, the point guard is not the only one touching the ball. You are asking the big men to be a part of running that weave and they sometime struggle with that. You are asking all 5 players to take part in it and most big men can't handle the ball and shouldn't be asked to handle the ball in situations like that. All he is doing is setting them up to fail. He totally takes his bigs out of a game where they are dominating under the basket by bringing them out on top.


IT DOESN'T WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rockyraccoon]

Jimmy, we call it the death weave because for the past four years we have watched Clay lose game after game running it. You're right about one thing, if you say anything critical about the program you get the real "tools" like WWH saying "let the coach's coach". That's about the limit of his input. Never has a point or counter point, just mindless dribble. Most people understand this is a forum to discuss basketball, some just don't get it.
WWH, do you really think what is posted on here affects the players more than what is discussed openly in front of them. Since you say "let coach's coach" lets look at last night. Had a 13 point lead, went to the weave, lost the lead, got behind by 7 or 8, told players "take it to the rim", 4 or 5 possesions in the last minute, ran the ball the full length of the court for 1 on 4 forced lay ups, completely out of control, didn't attempt one three, or set play to get open shot. No time outs called to settle down team and watched a team with 1 win beat you by 10 points on your home floor. That's coaching. Oh wait, I forgot, it's the kids.

[svbt1112]

Couple of things:

First: How does New Boston score 32 points in the 4th quarter? That is crazy! I don't care if you ARE in the death weave...... they only scored 32 points in the first 3 quarters combined.

Second: This is a great win for New Boston, but a TERRIBLE loss for Clay and all of SOC1. Your best team in the league gets beat by a 1 win team at home. I believed after beating Green, Symmes Valley and Eastern that Clay was turning the corner and was sewing up the 3 seed at the Valley sectional----but they have opened that up for now. With only 1 non-league win (st. joe) they have to continue to win to hold respect for the draw.

[rockyraccoon]

Couple of things:

First: How does New Boston score 32 points in the 4th quarter? That is crazy! I don't care if you ARE in the death weave...... they only scored 32 points in the first 3 quarters combined.

Second: This is a great win for New Boston, but a TERRIBLE loss for Clay and all of SOC1. Your best team in the league gets beat by a 1 win team at home. I believed after beating Green, Symmes Valley and Eastern that Clay was turning the corner and was sewing up the 3 seed at the Valley sectional----but they have opened that up for now. With only 1 non-league win (st. joe) they have to continue to win to hold respect for the draw.

NB shot lights out in the 4th quarter, the weave has nothing to do with that, it only takes away Clay's ability to score. It also produces turnovers out front the are converted into easy baskets. Not sure how many of those 32 points were from the foul line as Clay kept missing lay ups and had to foul to stop the clock.

[ManitouDan]

lay off the coach out there --he is doing a fine job. MD

[svbt1112]

I was wondering if there were some layups given up from turnovers out front----that is the best and easiest way to score. Much rather have a dead-ball turnover (traveling or pass thrown out of bounds).

We use 2 or 3 guys out front to end games----have been in a lot of close ones. I think you are insulting your guards if you don't trust them out front. I want the ball in our point guards hands at the end.

[svbt1112]

Rocky: Just wanted you to know that we are rooting for Clay---or at least I am. I would love to see them win out and get the 3 seed and win a Sectional. Those kids have played together for 3 years now and it would be nice for them to get to play at the Convo. Our kids had that opportunity last year (didn't play well) but they still loved it.

If my son was on that team and he felt that strongly, I would ask him to go in and talk to the coach----man to man----and bring up the Death Weave-----maybe you guys have already done that. Our coaches talk to our kids about gameplans and why they do things and I truly think if my son had an opinion and brought it to the coach in the proper way, then the coach would at least listen. He might not change things, but he would listen. That is what I respect most about our coaches----they have a plan and everyone believes in it. We don't win every game, but I know that they are doing the best for our kids.

[rockyraccoon]

MD, I know from your past post your being sarcastict, or looking at ND perspective. Aren't you the one that coined the phrase "100 mph and going nowhere"

BTW, this from my opening post on this thread

"These two teams played to a 73 - 72 final at NB. Clay was up 14 with about 3 minutes, tried to weave and stall the clock." Go figure.

[rockyraccoon]

Rocky: Just wanted you to know that we are rooting for Clay---or at least I am. I would love to see them win out and get the 3 seed and win a Sectional. Those kids have played together for 3 years now and it would be nice for them to get to play at the Convo. Our kids had that opportunity last year (didn't play well) but they still loved it.

If my son was on that team and he felt that strongly, I would ask him to go in and talk to the coach----man to man----and bring up the Death Weave-----maybe you guys have already done that. Our coaches talk to our kids about gameplans and why they do things and I truly think if my son had an opinion and brought it to the coach in the proper way, then the coach would at least listen. He might not change things, but he would listen. That is what I respect most about our coaches----they have a plan and everyone believes in it. We don't win every game, but I know that they are doing the best for our kids.

Other than the weave and the refusal to play zone (which they did play against SV, Eastern and Green in their wins) he runs a pretty good program. From talking to former and current players, it has been brought up, but he believes in it and sticks with it. I can tell you that the past and present players have no confidence in themselves when they run it, and that is not good.
The bottom line is, if you're a Clay fan, you can't be happy with last nights game. Clay has the talent on the floor to win. These boys have waited for years for their chance to win as seniors. They only have about 10 games left before tournament. They have never won a tournament game, and this year is their chance to take the SOCI and make it to Athens, but unless things change it will tough for them to accomplish either goal. You can't let up on a team when you have them down.

[halftime]

I think the Clay boys lost this one there self.

[BlindWhiteHat]

I am not a Clay fan but here is my take from the outside looking in. I have read on here that this needs to be a forum in which basketball is discussed and that is fine. What I see is posters who give the kids all the credit when the team wins yet blames the coach for the loss each time Clay loses. I don't think a forum like this is the best place for talk like that. Kids do read this forum. How can they become accountable for their actions when they read how each time they lose it is because of the coach's "death weave"? Team sports consist of players and coaches mixing to make a final product. One rarely succeeds in spite of the other. If the coach needs to change his strategies or philosophies to improve the finished product, fine but I don't think bashing him on this website is going to bring about a positive change. It will only help to tear things apart and bring the program down.

As far as the team goes, I have watched Clay twice and truly was not all that impressed. The entire SE district from what I have seen is good but not great with very few great teams and very few terrible teams. Clay fits somewhere in the middle of the pack as a better than average team. I watched them shoot very well and beat St. Joe in a game in which honestly, St. Joe didn't play it's best game. I also watched Clay beat Green in which Clay built a large lead and held on to win. If TJ McCloud doesn't foul out with 5:00 or so left in the game, I think Green wins the game. My point being that just like every other team in the SE district, Clay has its weaknesses and I don't really believe the coach is that big of a problem.

[rockyraccoon]

BWH, I respect and appreciate your opinion. I think that Clay is a little better than average in their division, if only for the fact that the other teams are down a bit in talent. I know you have only watched a couple of games, and I don't know if WWH has actually seen any, but I have not missed a game in 4 years and probably have saw 75% of them in the 4 years before that, so right or wrong in my opinions, they are based on years of observation.
As for giving credit to the team and blame for the coach, I think that is true in all sports at all levels. All coaches will give the team credit for the wins and take the blame for the loss, It's part of the job. That is why I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape when a coach is criticised.

[a_c_m]

I am not even sure I know what a weave is? It appeared to me that the Panthers were just confused............the Tigers came to life and wanted it finally and it is about time................as far as the coach, Clay's bench was right in front of us and there is no way that the kids could hear a word he is saying because we could not.

The Tigers have been playing much better ball and should win a few more games. Panthers. keep your heads up and come back working hard............there are a few more games out there to win also!

[BlindWhiteHat]

I don't have a problem if the coach gives his players credit when his team wins and takes the blame when his team loses. That is what I would expect a coach to do. That isn't what is happening on this forum. It is parents/fans/players or whoever that praises the kids and throws the coach under the bus, it's not the coach taking the hit himself.

I don't have a problem at all with criticizing a coach; that comes with the job. I just don't know that this forum is the best way to air out those issues. Sure everyone is entitled to opinions but I find it hard to believe that a coach can do nothing right and his players win in spite of his ineptitude. Kids do read these forums and start to believe what they read, good and bad. If they feel everyone in the community thinks the coach is terrible, wouldn't it make sense to think they will stop listening to him? Then what happens?

[rockyraccoon]

I never said he could do "nothing right". They were 6 - 0 in the SOC I before the New Boston loss, and they are still in first place, tied with Green at 6 - 1. No one is throwing the coach under the bus. I don't understand the mentality of some posters who feel you can't say anything critical about a program in an open chat forum. Get off that "Kids read this stuff" because this isn't a secret being kept from them.
Clay builds up leads in games by running their offense, which seems to work fairly well by looking at their record, then as soon as they get a 6 - 8 point lead, they pull out of it and run the weave, only looking for open lay ups, which history has shown us for the past 4 years, doesn't work. Maybe they don't run the weave properly, pick and rolls are missed, screens are not set, whatever the cause it doesn't produce points. So I'll put this plain and simple, if you didn't use the weave to get the lead, why would you go to it once you have the lead.

[BlindWhiteHat]

Like I said, I have no problem with sharing opinions and discussing basketball. I just don't think this forum is the proper place to repeatedly air out a problem with a coach. We will never agree on this and that is fine with me. Agree to disagree.

[turncoat-ump13]

I attended the game against Valley. I could not enjoy the game due to this one guy sitting behind me yelling at the kids and trying to tell the kids what to do. This particular guy was also yelling at the kids "don't listen to your coach he's an idiot." Several of the kids would look up at this person when he was telling them what to do. He was even trying to get the kids to call a timeout. The superintendent finally asked the guy to root for the kids not to coach them. How can you expect a team to play to their capabilities when they have everyone trying to tell them what to do. Let the coach do the coaching. Even if it might not be what you think he should be doing.

[rockyraccoon]

That was the only time I have ever heard anyone in the stands yell at the boys, and he was asked to leave. He was not a parent. I'll admit, there is a high level of frustration that has built up over the years, but to my knowledge, no one has ever approached the coach or the school. We do in fact "let the coaches coach".