TVC Defensive and Offensive MPV canidates

[tomcatdad]

I can understand that, hardy and kittle need wound up from time to time. I've been sending you the cats scores . I dont know why you are even wasting your time with this hawkeye guy. keep up the good work, it seems baseball doesnt get share of attention around here and you work hard to get the info out there. hobby or not it is appreciated.

[93Bulldog]

Its these types of threads tomcatdad ... they can't every exist without some type of disagreement taking place. I definitly appreciate the scores sent; it helps tremendously!

[hawkeyepierce]

Tomcatdad, how much does the Messenger cover the Cats? Especially in baseball?

93Bulldog, you are so wrong. Scott Stricklin was the best defensive catcher I have ever seen, (not recruited by OU, by the way). I cannot remember how well he hit or didn't hit. But, Scott Chapman was not only a great defensive catcher but a tremendous hitter, and he would be a distant second to Stricklin. I believe Coach Gibson will agree with me. I think Cory Bean was a better catcher. Again, Dean is a very fine baseball player, but, these men were exceptional. Moreover, Dean is a preferred walk-on, his mother works in OU's athletic department; therefore, his tuition is discounted.

[93Bulldog]

No Hawkeye I'm not wrong man ... I graduated in '93, Scott in '90 ... I watched that team and those players my entire childhood - up until I was 15 when they graduated ... My sister was the exact same age as that class - her being a cheerleader and my mom the advisor - I got dragged off to almost all of their games growing up ... I even traveled all the way to Minnesota to watch the '90 legion team compete in the regionals ... I'm telling you right now, Kyle Dean is pretty close to Strickland defensively and is a far better hitter! Strick attempted to bat left handed, even though he was right handed, and was good at getting on base (batting in the 2-hole) and could bunt really well - but in terms of driving the ball, hitting for power and racking up R.B.I's - its not even really that close ... Kyle Dean is definitly better at the plate, and knowing Scott personally, he would be the first to tell you that if he watched Kyle bat enough.

Its obvious you don't read the Messenger - if you had - you would have seen Gibby's comments about Dean in the article written a week ago ... "Kyle Dean is probably the best catcher we've had at Athens in the past 20 years." ... That was just one of the quotes.

I'm sorry man - but how you think you could possibly know more about this issue is totally laughable ... Ive seen both players play so many times its not even funny ... I think I know what I'm talking about, especially being a catcher myself - just two years after Strick. And to say Coach Gibson wouldn't agree with me - well - he already basically did and everyone who recieves or reads the Messenger knows that.

BTW ... just because you have a parent working at OU DOES NOT mean your not being recruited by a coach or the team ... why not take advantage of the rule and obtain a player for free basically and still have a scholorship open to a player from outside the area? It's a no brainer, especially with the NCAA having such strict guidelines on the number of players and scholorships your allowed to offer ... They basically get a great player and don't have to waste a scholorship on him or her.

(About Strickland not being recruited by OU) yea, that was probably a mistake ... BUT ... OU already had a couple of catchers and they did ask Strickland to walk on if I remember right - but he turned them down ... ALSO - OU was going to have 3 Athens kids on the roster that next year with CORY CORRIGAN, BROCK TOADVINE & SCOTT DECAMINADA ... whether or not that played a role in the decision not to offer Strickland a scholorship is questionable. But to say OU didn't offer any area kids a chance back then could be viewed as false - they had 3 Athens players, and then brought in Justin Day from Trimble two years later.

[Orestes]

This is a bit silly...

1. His screen name has "bulldog" in it. I think we are all capable of taking that into account when reading his posts. Most people consider past posts and affiliation when deciding how much stock to put into the current post. With a name like 93bulldog, it isn't like he is trying to hide is allegiance. Now if it happens in the newspaper, that is different. I just wouldn't know.

2. The comparison of catchers is not apples to apples. Both played in different eras, and while I'm not one to say one era was stronger than another, I can say with near certainty that their senior seasons were not played against the exact same level of competition. It differs every year.

3. The human memory is flawed. No matter how intellectually honest a person is being, memories are simply not accurate. Check out the book "Witness for the Defense" sometime. To paraphrase a study on the human memory, 10 people can see the exact same drama play out from the exact same viewpoint. Then 10 minutes later, when asked to give a description of the actors and what took place, the subjects give different descriptions. Typically, they are all wrong. Yet, they all think they are correct, and all of them are being as honest as possible. Thus, no way anyone can remember the two players with enough accuracy to compare them fairly. It doesn't matter how close or how distant a person is to the situation. The images in our heads are often wrong.

4. If the award is MVP, then at least one Athens player needs to win an award. If it is POY, then the best defensive and offensive players should win regardless of team success. Still, I would hesitate to put much faith in high school baseball stats. I have an anecdote about stats. In the early 2000s, FH was winning TVC Hocking titles. They were doing so as an offensive-oriented program. In some of these seasons, they likely had three of the top five hitters in the division. Yet, Coach Brunty would have either one or zero players with a +.500 batting average, and would come back from TVC meetings saying a middle-of-the-pack team nominated four players with +.500 batting averages. Laughable. To put that into perspective, despite being an offensive-oriented program, in Coach Brunty's 12 seasons as head coach, I can think of four players who started and had +.500 batting averages for a season. Again, laughable. It just shows how subjective baseball stats can be. Some guys get "hits" for hitting hard ground balls at the SS.

5. I think the quality of Vinton County's team should be considered even if it is a POY award. The only reason: Considering their lack of success and placement in the league, how many "aces" has VC looked at this season? I am guessing not many. Meanwhile, the upper-level teams see aces in about every league game, and occasionally in non-league games. Plus, the better teams typically play tougher non-league schedules. Again, stats are so subjective, and that is especially so in high school baseball. I don't say that as a knock on Grillo, as I have not seen him play. I am just saying it is something that needs consideration.

[tomcatdad]

hawkeye, I have a scrapbook full of atricles on the cats just from the last 2 years that my son has played so i cant complain too much. you guys have fun going at it.

[questionmark]

Hawkeye--

You cannot hold against a kid what his parent's do for a living. Kyle Dean is not playing for Ohio U. next season because his mother works for Ohio U. somewhere. Kyle Dean, who happens to be the Athens catcher, is moving from the Green & Gold of the Bulldogs to the Green & White of the Bobcats because he has started for Athens every year he has been in high school, that's right! Dean has been a Varsity catcher for not 1, not 2, not 3, but for 4 years. Now, somebody somewhere must have seen something, because not many freshmen play at the Varsity level. I have had the chance to coach Kyle for 4 years, and there is not one kid in the league that works harder then him. If you would like to understand why this kid from Athens is going to OU, come watch him play. Walking on to a Division I team is not an easy feat, trust me, I did it twice. It takes a lot of hard work.

Orestes--

You my friend are exactly right. Memories begin to change as time begins to get away from us. However your point for MVP vs POY are spot on. For years, not just in High School Sports, MVP's have went to players on winning teams. It is not something that is new, and is not something that will change. It is rare to see an athlete have a stand-out season without seeing their team succeed as well (other then Zach Grienke, Royals) last season. Grienke had an unbelievable season yet the Royals were Royally Awful. Did Grienke win an MVP, no, but did take a Cy Young, which is for the best pitcher.

93Bulldog is a Bulldog Supporter through and through and on hear he can be. He has no affiliation with the site, he is free to support anyone as bias as one may choose to. I was a Bulldog, and love the Bulldogs, and when I see a Bulldog having a great season, you better believe I will support them. Orestes, he was a Lancer, and I bet is still a huge Lancer supporter, and I bet he feels the same way as I do. Everyone is free to debate whether player A is better then player B, but in the end, the coaches will put up their players and then will vote. Hawkeye, instead of ranting and raving, why not take some of that bitterness and instead give some support to players you feel are not getting looked at. I have seen mostly Athens games, hence why in my list above you see players from Athens that I feel are good, solid ball players. I did not say a single player should win Award A or Award B, however I simply gave an opinion on some players I feel have had good seasons.

The Issue of The Messenger & OU--

Get over it. Ohio University will every year miss out on some local talent. It again is not something new, and is not something that will change. Their misses are other college's gains, and for every kid they miss out on who goes onto to success (Andrew Coble, Athens High) who went to Marietta College and was part of their World Series team, they will look harder when it comes to observing talent around our area. Ohio Baseball only gets so much money to try and bring in the best talent, and that is a major reason on why players around here sometimes fall through the cracks. The Messenger does the best they can. If you do not like the coverage that it supplies then their are two simple solutions. Start your own newspaper so you can control what areas get covered or simple don't read it.

Orestes--
You know a little about catching
Who are some of your favorite Catchers from the past 10 years...
Let me know, also you should come see the brother of that ACE you used to catch a couple of some odd years ago...also, we should put a list of all the local talent OU has let slip. I bet we could put together one helluva team...

Last Note --
The hardwork 93 has put into the trivalley page, he definitely cares about the League...that is a FACT!

[93Bulldog]

Orestes .... intresting reading man ... I like to think my memory cells are still hard at work and working properly - but after locking my keys in the car last night - its got me wondering if that's true or not.

questionmark ... Thoughts of past players who were snubbed by OU was on my mind last night even before I read your post ... I know OU has passed over a few good players over the years, that's for sure ... But really, think about ALL the players in Southeastern Ohio every year - their are hundreds - which don't go on to play D-I baseball anywhere else either. I mean, how many D-I schools are there in Ohio, West Virginia, Indiana & Pennsylvania? A Bunch right ... Well, their not really recruiting a ton of kids out of Southeastern Ohio either - compared to the number of high school players playing ... If OU is snubbing all these players (which Hawkeye alluded too) then who are they and where did they go play? Or who are they now & where are they going?

I can only think of 3 players who were snubbed by OU that went on to play at a different Division I school .... SCOTT STRICKLAND (KENT STATE), JAKE HALE (OHIO STATE) & JARED HUMPHREYS (KENT STATE). I know there are probably more, I just can't think of them ... perhaps its that memory thing Orestes was talking about ... lol

(I just named three that were snubbed by OU - but I can also name 4 players that were not - SCOTT DECAMINADA, CORY CORRIGAN, BROCK TOADVINE & JUSTIN DAY.)

BUT ... TALKING ABOUT PLAYERS WHO MAY HAVE BEEN SNUBBED BY OU that went on to play elsewhere (other than Division I) is a completely different story. You could get into players like Coble, Jason Irvin (who ended up becoming the strikeout leader at Shawnee State), Chris Hewitt, Izzy Olvera (who was just about as good of starting pitcher that Athens has ever had), etc....etc....

[g w mclintock]

Well my friends, let's see if we can get this thread back on topic....

I have seen most of the players in the Hocking and Ohio Divisions and here are some names to ad to the mix.

Hocking- Tyler Thompson (FH) is the best defensive player in this division. Possibly the best pitcher in either division and a strong case could be made for his offensive stats as well. Titus Pierce (Eastern), Lance Sharp (FH) and JD Chesser from Trimble have also had nice seasons. Unfortunately for them this is Thompson's year. Chesser will take this honor next year. The offensive MVP will have alot of the same canidates. Lance Sharp, JD Chesser and Dwayne Clark (FH) have all had nice years. I'm sure based on Eastern's success, they have some deserving hitters with good numbers too but we don't hear alot about them. Perhaps the Eastern fans can help here.

Ohio- Kyle Dean is the defensive mvp of this division. This kid can flat play the game and he is a D1 signee. We don't have many of those is our area. Greg Pach & Doug Chapman (Athens), Darnell and Mateson (Wellston) - check spelling-, Tyler Watkins (Belpre) and Andy Grillo (VC) and Dirk Malone (Alex) are deserving but not as good as Dean. Offensively Dean has been very good but this award is up for grabs. Watkins and Grillo are great hitters. Chapman, Darnell and Cody Lawson (Alex) have been dangerous at the plate so the offensive mvp could go to any of them.

In my humble opinion Thompson and Dean are the only obvious choices for defensive mvps. The offensive side is wide open...

[93Bulldog]

Orestes ... About your memory concept ... I think there is a difference between a person or persons remembering an 'incident' or fragment in time - and a person who might have seen something over & over again to the point where its embeded in his or her mind. If you see a movie once you will probably remember the characters or the main plot - but if you see a movie 20 times you can probably recite the entire flick word-for-word. Right?

When to comes to Strickland playing as long ago as he did, I can still remember everything about him as a player (especially his skills behind the plate) ... I watched him play at least 10 high school games his junior year, probably 20 games during that summer for Post 21, I didn't see as many high school games his senior year cause I was on the JV team - but I made up for it that summer by seeing probably 30 or 40 legion games when you add up all the District, State & Regional games Athens played in ... So I'm guessing in the neigborhood of about 500+ innings that I watched him play ... and not just watching him or the team ... I litterly idolized Scott growing up, being a catcher myself, I watched his every move & tried to do everything he did ... As most of the fans would watch the game unfold, I would be sitting there behind the backstop watching/studying Strick as he played the position to near perfection. I think when it comes to remembering him as a player - those images & what he did is basically hardwired into my brain & I will never forget it as long as I live ... Its as if I watched a movie not only 20 times, but a hundred and can recite the whole thing word-for-word. That is a huge difference than person A and person B trying to remember something and having different views on the subject.

Fast forward to 2008, 2009 & now - I still sit behind the backstop during Athens games & I still love to watch the catcher (not only the Athens catcher but the other teams' catcher as well) ... With Kyle Dean, it seems like the kid has been behind the plate forever ...lol ... but with him playing so many varsity games - plus playing legion ball - Ive got to see him play an awfull lot over the last few years ... I can honestly say he's pretty close to Strick in every aspect of the game defensively ... Notice I said 'pretty close' and not better or equal. Strickland was just flat out awesome as a high school catcher, the best I have ever seen ... BUT, Kyle Dean is as close to his talent level that I have seen since 1990 - AND - he's a much better hitter. IMO.

[93Bulldog]

THANKS McLINTOCK ... good idea ... get back to the topic.

The one thing that comes to mind when you mentioned all those players in your post - is HOW GOOD THE ATHENS LEGION TEAM will be this summer! Not only will they have all these great players you just talked about - they get JARED CLINE back, who is still young enough to play, & I believe GRANT SMITH can come back and play as well. There should be some fine baseball being playing on the Plains this summer that's for sure.

[Rufus]

Kyle Dean is the best catcher I've seen in the TVC in a loooong time (Sorry Orestes). No doubt he deserves the Defensive MVP.

[tomcatdad]

Well my friends, let's see if we can get this thread back on topic....

I have seen most of the players in the Hocking and Ohio Divisions and here are some names to ad to the mix.

Hocking- Tyler Thompson (FH) is the best defensive player in this division. Possibly the best pitcher in either division and a strong case could be made for his offensive stats as well. Titus Pierce (Eastern), Lance Sharp (FH) and JD Chesser from Trimble have also had nice seasons. Unfortunately for them this is Thompson's year. Chesser will take this honor next year. The offensive MVP will have alot of the same canidates. Lance Sharp, JD Chesser and Dwayne Clark (FH) have all had nice years. I'm sure based on Eastern's success, they have some deserving hitters with good numbers too but we don't hear alot about them. Perhaps the Eastern fans can help here.

Ohio- Kyle Dean is the defensive mvp of this division. This kid can flat play the game and he is a D1 signee. We don't have many of those is our area. Greg Pach & Doug Chapman (Athens), Darnell and Mateson (Wellston) - check spelling-, Tyler Watkins (Belpre) and Andy Grillo (VC) and Dirk Malone (Alex) are deserving but not as good as Dean. Offensively Dean has been very good but this award is up for grabs. Watkins and Grillo are great hitters. Chapman, Darnell and Cody Lawson (Alex) have been dangerous at the plate so the offensive mvp could go to any of them.

In my humble opinion Thompson and Dean are the only obvious choices for defensive mvps. The offensive side is wide open...

thanks for the mention of jd chesser. with him only being a sophmore i hope to see some good baseball out of him for 2 more years

[Orestes]

Ha.. I see no one is going to hop on board with my memory philosophy (sigh).

And stud, I hope you don't think I was trying to throw myself into this category of catchers. I am fully aware that I was a bushleague sandlot player. My philosophy for throwing runners out was "get rid of it quickly and throw it hard." My blocking philosophy was "drop to my knees, smother the ball, and suck it up, Nancy." My framing philosophy was "hold the glove still after catching it."

Good times... and we weren't the bushiest team around for nothing... Throwing rocks at each other during stretching and yelling cat calls at girls walking by with their dads just drips of class






From what I have been told by other people I trust, I agree with GW about Thompson.

[Keyser_sozeThrice]

I don't believe 93bulldog has any link to The Athens Messenger.

So for anybody to link him to the Messenger has either not read The Messenger or has been under a boulder the size of Texas.

Hawkeyepierce has this tremendous tendency to think that ANYONE who is not from Vinton County or has ties to Vinton County is out to get Vinton County no matter what. Especially those in the Southeastern Ohio print media.

Which, as we all know, is ludicrous.

By the way, he is probably at his American Legion Post 303 Wombats baseball team meeting as we post. It was supposed to begin at 6 p.m. and it's 5:59 by Keyser_soze 78 time as we post.

[93Bulldog]

I'm not sure anyone said I did keyser ... Hawkeye has been dogging on the Messenger all year, it has nothing to do with me.

Our disagreement on some matters stems from a girls basketball game between Alex & VC which I covered back during the winter - but Hawkeye and most likely everyone else - knows I havn't covered any games since January ... I posted numerous times I was no longer going to cover games for awhile ... Just like you said, unless a person has been living underneath a rock, they would know that ... I just think he doesn't like the Messenger. Period.

[belpreboy92]

When will this award be determined?

[Gib25]

At the all-league meeting on May 16th at Wellston. Each coach gets to nominate a player(s) and then the coaches vote on the two positions.

[Charlie hustle]

I agree that sometimes stats are misleading; I think you have to look at what pitchers players have faced and look at what team’s pitchers have pitched against. I have seen some coaches throw their ace against horrible teams just to pad their stats. I think if you are on a team that is not very good it is going to help you at batting, because you are going to be facing weaker pitching every game, where if you are on a good team you face the best every game. So a kid batting 400 on a weak team might bat 200 on a good team. I think you would have to factor all this in picking players of the year.

[eagle7]

Maffin is the best pitcher in the Ohio hands down, The Chapman boy from Athens is the best all around player in my opinion.

I think Nick Hunter from NY deserves a little love. That young man is a very good pitcher and a fine outfielder.

I dont agree with Maffin being the best pither in the Ohio at all. I think both Watkins and Nestor from belpre and the kid from Megis are all better than him, imo