Rules help please!

[galliasportsfan]

In tonights Warren vs. Gallia Academy game there was a call made that no one seemed to know the ruling. Just wondering if some of you Baseball Umpires could help me understand the ruling.

Here's the situation: No out, runner on first base. Ball is hit to left field and fielder seems to catch the ball and then drop ball when exchanging to throw. Umpire signals safe when ball is dropped, runner on first advances to third during play, and batter is thrown out @ second base.

GA's coach argues that ball was caught and that runner on third would be out b/c he did not tag when ball was caught.
Umpires get together and signal that ball was caught and then signal out for the runner on third after GA throws to first and touches bag for appeal.

Warren's coach then argues his point. Umpires again get together and change ruling and say runner is allowed to stay on third.

At this point GA's coach argues again and is thrown out of game.

My question is if ball is considered caught and out is made due to ball being caught after appeal, what base if any do you award the runner that started on first base?

[jottings]

Good question.

[ABB]

If umpire signals safe on the fly ball, the runner and batter advance at their own risk. Runner should be at third with one out. The argument was probably more about whether it was a catch or not...

[blockcharge]

Best bet for the umpires would be if they stuck with their original call of safe. Did the defense just throw the ball to first after all that discussion and appeal, if so its an illegal appeal and the runner at third would be safe. For the appeal to be legal the pitcher would have to "toe" the rubber step off and then appeal , throw the ball to first base and tell the umpire what they were appealing. Umps see the play, take a deep breath, make sure you saw what you thought, then make the call and stick with it.

[superblue]

"Umpire signals safe when ball is dropped, runner on first advances to third during play, and batter is thrown out @ second base." That's how the play should have ended.... The umpire made a judgement call that the ball was dropped.. This call should not have been overturned... Sounds like the umps made up the rules as they went.... The only other outcome that could have happened, (and I am not sure this is possible), is that the batter could be called out and the runner on third would be returned to first.... I use to umpire a long time ago and I remember reading a baseball rule that stated if something happened that was not in the rule book that the head umpire could more or less make up a ruling..... Use common sense, If the left fielder would have caught the ball the runner on first would have stayed there... I am sorry to hear that the GAHS coach was kicked out because of this incorrect ruling by the umpires.... Hopefully they will be reprimanded also....

[galliasportsfan]

Thanks everyone. I agree that the umps should have just stuck with original call since batter was out @ second anyway. It just made everyone there mad when they attempted to change the call a few times.

[blaze275]

THE LEFT FIELDER CAUGHT THE BALL AND WHEN HE TRANSFERED THE BALL TO HIS THROWING HAND HE DROPPED IT. IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN CALLED A CATCH AND AN OUT. ANY GOOD UMPIRE SHOULD KNOW THAT RULE.SORRY THE UMPMISSED THE CALL. THATS JUST BASEBALL!

[galliasportsfan]

I don't think the real issue is that the call was missed...It's that they changed the call multiple times.

[jkumpiretriesagain]

Ouch!

What you have is a mess.

1. Plate umpire should have let the Base umpire's call stand. That is his ball. further, if you reverse the play (which is what later happened according to the Marietta Times story), it is almost impossible to place runners, since you have no idea where they should go. It does not taste good going down, but the Plate man has to eat his safe/no catch call. The plate umpire will have to explain to both coaches what happened when they ask. And that would be painful, and nobody would like it. But it would have kept the GAHS coach in the game.

Having said that, the HS rule book allows the umpires to fix any error that puts a runner in jeopardy of being out because on an incorrect umpire's call. Which means that the runner would have been placed somewhere because of the possibility of the runner being called out on appeal. If it was me, he goes back to 1st base, or maybe 2nd base. That's the best GAHS is going to get on the play. Once the Plate man makes his vocal call and signal, the runner did the right thing, he has to run or he's forced at 2B.

A lot of the rest of the story we don't really know enough about to really comment. I feel bad for the coach that got ejected; Unless he can find two games before his first tournament game he will miss at least one of his tournament games, if not two. That's a big penalty to pay, and to do that to his kids is a big error by him. I also feel awful for the umpires, nobody who does a game this important wants to mess things up, and it sounds like they made an innocent mistake.

Which leads me to the question I want to ask: Why did the GAHS manager come out again, and get ejected? He may not have gotten the best deal if he got the no-catch call, a runner on 3rd and one out. But there is no way he is going to get 2 outs on the play, whatever he does. But getting himself ejected pleading his case doesn't change anything either.

[galliasportsfan]

Thankfully GAHS had a game tonight vs. Eastern Meigs and a game tomorrow vs. Huntington Ross, therefore he should be back for the tourny games.

[soccerfix]

We're taking someone's word that it was a catch and dropped on the transfer. Without witnessing the play, it is hard to determine. It is always a judgment call and is rarely a clearcut decision.

[Farr]

I know I probably should not comment, but I respect Coach Corbin and both teams were very deserving in that situation. I have tried to find the exact ruling myself and have been unable to. I was not watching the base umpire to see if he ever signaled whether the ball was caught or not. The only thing I am sure of is that the home plate umpire signaled safe and, at the very least, the HS rules allow for a base runner to be returned to the base due to umpire error. So if in fact the base umpire signaled out then the runner on first should be returned to first and not appealed out because he advanced after the home plate umpire signaled no catch. I looked thru the rule book and it was very confusing. It is my belief that the umpires ruled as best they could in that situation (whether it benefited my team or not) because I do not think the base umpire made a call. Coach Corbin argued the only way that he could in that situation, as I would have.
On a side note, Gallia would not have had any trouble finding two games this week to ensure that Coach Corbin would not miss the tourney.

[galliasportsfan]

Farr...base umpire also signaled safe as soon as ball was dropped.

Soccerfix...I agree that there is no clear cut way to call that, the problem is that as an official either stick with your call or allow the other officials on your crew help you determine the correct call. Just don't change the call multiple times.

BTW everyone...I am in no way bashing these umpires. I myself am a Football official. I realize how hard it is sometimes on judgement calls. I was just wanting to know how this play should be ruled in different situations.

[blaze275]

YES I WAS THERE AND I SAW IT,AS MY SON PLAYS ON GALLIAS TEAM,BUT GALLIA HAD A CHANCE TOWIN AND THEY DIDNT. TOBAD IT HAD TO HAPPEN IT WAS A GOOD GAME BETWEEN TWO FINE TEAMS.

[mhs95_06]

Correcting a call was done in a Reds game on whether it was a catch or a trap in RF within the last couple weeks. So whether one called out and the other safe or both called safe(something they later wanted to correct to batter out on the catch, and rightfully so in my opinion) in this game, it caused the play to progress in a way that it wouldn't have if it would have been originally called the way they ended up calling it after conference. Seems clear to me that they should have reverted to what would likely have happened had they not called it wrong, or confusingly called it. And this would be the batter out and the runner stays on first. I believe they have that leeway under the rules.

There is another thread on this forum about an umpire mesing up on the infield fly rule. In that case, and any other case where the umpire messes up, rather than have his bad call decide the game in a wrong way, I'd think the better way would be to make a good judgement after the play is over as to what would likely have happened if the call had not been botched. This stance calls for humble umpires that will admit errors and want the fairest ruling for the kids, for whom the game is to benefit after all.