Big School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
- OneHitWonder
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Big School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
As a casual reader of SEOP I thought that I would weigh in on a subject that seams to continually be brought up by posters throughout these forums. School Size. As someone who has been involved with football as a parent and a coach I think that I have some insight into the entire big school little school debate. In my opinion size (at least in Southeastern Ohio) is one of the least important factors in determining how successful a high school football program will be.
The real factors in my opinion are:
1. Community – No matter how big or small your community is are they committed to football. I mean really committed, Live and Breath Football. Fill the Stands 3 hours early, Take big crowds to all away games, kind of committed. To the point where your community draws it’s identity from its team.
2. Commitment – Commitment to do what it takes to be successful. Once again this has to be community wide, it’s everyone in the community doing what’s requires to be successful from the parents to the store owners, teachers, principals, coaches, players. EVERYONE.
3. Consistency – In order to be successful you must have consistency throughout your program from the top to the bottom, everyone working toward a common goal. Foe example N-Y has had three coaches in their entire schools history while there was a time in the 90’s when Athens had 3 coaches in three years.
4. Tradition – As defined by Webster’s “a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting.†Winners Win. Teams that are steeped in tradition and expect to win are hard to beat on a Friday night regardless of size.
5. Bobs and Joes – Face it great athletes make great coaches. When a school has a run of exceptional athletes then their football program will probably benefit. Granted the first four items on my list go a long way toward developing great athletes, but we all know that every once in a while they get dropped in your lap and you just try not to screw things up.
Only when the above factors are equal or close to being equal does size come into consideration. I will agree that if the playing field is equal on all fronts then the larger school should have the advantage due to greater resources, ie players.
But here in little old Southeastern Ohio I’ll take the team with the above factors over size any day.
The real factors in my opinion are:
1. Community – No matter how big or small your community is are they committed to football. I mean really committed, Live and Breath Football. Fill the Stands 3 hours early, Take big crowds to all away games, kind of committed. To the point where your community draws it’s identity from its team.
2. Commitment – Commitment to do what it takes to be successful. Once again this has to be community wide, it’s everyone in the community doing what’s requires to be successful from the parents to the store owners, teachers, principals, coaches, players. EVERYONE.
3. Consistency – In order to be successful you must have consistency throughout your program from the top to the bottom, everyone working toward a common goal. Foe example N-Y has had three coaches in their entire schools history while there was a time in the 90’s when Athens had 3 coaches in three years.
4. Tradition – As defined by Webster’s “a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting.†Winners Win. Teams that are steeped in tradition and expect to win are hard to beat on a Friday night regardless of size.
5. Bobs and Joes – Face it great athletes make great coaches. When a school has a run of exceptional athletes then their football program will probably benefit. Granted the first four items on my list go a long way toward developing great athletes, but we all know that every once in a while they get dropped in your lap and you just try not to screw things up.
Only when the above factors are equal or close to being equal does size come into consideration. I will agree that if the playing field is equal on all fronts then the larger school should have the advantage due to greater resources, ie players.
But here in little old Southeastern Ohio I’ll take the team with the above factors over size any day.
Last edited by OneHitWonder on Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Bis School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
I like where you're coming from. The only thing that I'd tend to disagree on is that if you compare two schools and your first three points are equal, the bigger school has a lot more kids to sift through to get better quality Bobs and Joes than the smaller school.
Re: Bis School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
The only thing I would add is that the "Big" schools numbers can be misleading. If you're Federal, Vinton, and Logan you may have a Billie or Bob that lives in a single parent family where there is only one car and it's a 30 to 35 minute drive to practice.
This makes it tough to get kids (especially younger) out---A school might be smaller but if most of it's athletes can ride a bike to practice they have an advantage against a school where your carpool might be as important as your knowledge of x's and o's.
Another way the large school area hurts is that your athletes don't know where each other residences are--A Coolville or Hockingport kid usually has know idea where an Amesville kid actually lives. These kids only see each other during the school day--they don't shop or hang out in the same places, let alone get together to shoot hoops or throw the rock around.
This makes it tough to get kids (especially younger) out---A school might be smaller but if most of it's athletes can ride a bike to practice they have an advantage against a school where your carpool might be as important as your knowledge of x's and o's.
Another way the large school area hurts is that your athletes don't know where each other residences are--A Coolville or Hockingport kid usually has know idea where an Amesville kid actually lives. These kids only see each other during the school day--they don't shop or hang out in the same places, let alone get together to shoot hoops or throw the rock around.
Re: Big School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
One Hit,
So you are saying that outside of SE Ohio size does matter? and those other factors do not?
The size difference between Athens and other schools (Athens is what started this whole debate) is not that great. 100-150 boys is not that big of a disparity. However, look at DI schools now. You cannot tell me that all the Cincinnati/Columbus/Cleveland schools with over 1000 boys playing other D1 schools such as Lancaster with 400 less boys makes a huge difference in size.
I have 2 points for you on the matter.
You said Bob's and Joe's---Doesn't competition within make you better as a football team? I would say that it does. Most small schools have 1 QB or 1 TB from 3rd grade until they are a senior, little competition within to motivate them to be better. Some athletes make themselves better through self motivation but that cannot compare if you are competing for playing time each and every practice like kids are in bigger schools. Take Cincy St. X for example: they had 71 SENIORS two years ago. Think of the competition they had each and every day. Small schools are not capable of that.
My next point is that I would put Logan and NY on the same level as far as your categories of tradition/community/commitment/consistency up until Amyx (spelling) left. NY got the best of NY this year which takes away from my next point. But would you say that two teams that are even in those categories and one is a D5 and one is D3, would you say that the D3 team wins majority of the matchups?
Also in your debate Athens is not a good example. They are a D2/D3 team with 60 boys on the team (all 3 levels). Take Big Walnut for example a D2 school with 85 boys on the team. That makes a huuuge difference.
So you are saying that outside of SE Ohio size does matter? and those other factors do not?
The size difference between Athens and other schools (Athens is what started this whole debate) is not that great. 100-150 boys is not that big of a disparity. However, look at DI schools now. You cannot tell me that all the Cincinnati/Columbus/Cleveland schools with over 1000 boys playing other D1 schools such as Lancaster with 400 less boys makes a huge difference in size.
I have 2 points for you on the matter.
You said Bob's and Joe's---Doesn't competition within make you better as a football team? I would say that it does. Most small schools have 1 QB or 1 TB from 3rd grade until they are a senior, little competition within to motivate them to be better. Some athletes make themselves better through self motivation but that cannot compare if you are competing for playing time each and every practice like kids are in bigger schools. Take Cincy St. X for example: they had 71 SENIORS two years ago. Think of the competition they had each and every day. Small schools are not capable of that.
My next point is that I would put Logan and NY on the same level as far as your categories of tradition/community/commitment/consistency up until Amyx (spelling) left. NY got the best of NY this year which takes away from my next point. But would you say that two teams that are even in those categories and one is a D5 and one is D3, would you say that the D3 team wins majority of the matchups?
Also in your debate Athens is not a good example. They are a D2/D3 team with 60 boys on the team (all 3 levels). Take Big Walnut for example a D2 school with 85 boys on the team. That makes a huuuge difference.
- OneHitWonder
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Re: Big School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
What I am saying is that I know about SE Ohio and don't pretend to know about other parts of the state nor was I trying to imply that what I think about football in our little corner of the state applies state wide.. I do agree with your assessment of Division I football in the state I would be in favor of a seventh division that included those schools with male populations over a certain number. The disparity in Division I is absurd. As for your point about Logan you seem to have missed my point... Back in the early 90' when Logan and Nelsonville were playing on a yearly basis all things being on the same level as far as the categories of tradition/community/commitment/consistency goes the team with the better Bobs and Joes won.. N-Y with the Gail boys took 2 out of three (if memory serves me right) only to have Logan come out on the winning end with the Conrad boys.CavsFan08 wrote:One Hit,
So you are saying that outside of SE Ohio size does matter? and those other factors do not?
The size difference between Athens and other schools (Athens is what started this whole debate) is not that great. 100-150 boys is not that big of a disparity. However, look at DI schools now. You cannot tell me that all the Cincinnati/Columbus/Cleveland schools with over 1000 boys playing other D1 schools such as Lancaster with 400 less boys makes a huge difference in size.
I have 2 points for you on the matter.
You said Bob's and Joe's---Doesn't competition within make you better as a football team? I would say that it does. Most small schools have 1 QB or 1 TB from 3rd grade until they are a senior, little competition within to motivate them to be better. Some athletes make themselves better through self motivation but that cannot compare if you are competing for playing time each and every practice like kids are in bigger schools. Take Cincy St. X for example: they had 71 SENIORS two years ago. Think of the competition they had each and every day. Small schools are not capable of that.
My next point is that I would put Logan and NY on the same level as far as your categories of tradition/community/commitment/consistency up until Amyx (spelling) left. NY got the best of NY this year which takes away from my next point. But would you say that two teams that are even in those categories and one is a D5 and one is D3, would you say that the D3 team wins majority of the matchups?
Also in your debate Athens is not a good example. They are a D2/D3 team with 60 boys on the team (all 3 levels). Take Big Walnut for example a D2 school with 85 boys on the team. That makes a huuuge difference.
As for your final point. Compare Big Nut and Athens on the categories I listed Big Nut wins hands down.... and buy the way looking at Athens(DIII) Roster they dress 48 boys for varsity and have 30 freshman.. this year..
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Re: Big School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
Once each team has its 11 kids on the field - Division status doesn't mean squat.
I watched a Division V Nelsonville-York team dismantle a Division II Logan team 42-6 ... It happens ALL THE TIME in and around Southeastern Ohio. Right now I am willing to bet a (D5) Valley team would beat (D2) Warren ... (D5) Portsmouth West would probably beat (D2) Chillicothe ... (D5) Wheelersburg would beat (D2) Marietta ... (D4) Ironton would beat (D2) Logan ... (D6) Trimble could probably beat a (D4) Meigs team ... (D5) Wahama would beat (D3) Vinton County ... I can go on and on.
I watched a Division V Nelsonville-York team dismantle a Division II Logan team 42-6 ... It happens ALL THE TIME in and around Southeastern Ohio. Right now I am willing to bet a (D5) Valley team would beat (D2) Warren ... (D5) Portsmouth West would probably beat (D2) Chillicothe ... (D5) Wheelersburg would beat (D2) Marietta ... (D4) Ironton would beat (D2) Logan ... (D6) Trimble could probably beat a (D4) Meigs team ... (D5) Wahama would beat (D3) Vinton County ... I can go on and on.
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Re: Big School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
CavsFan08 wrote:One Hit,
So you are saying that outside of SE Ohio size does matter? and those other factors do not?
The size difference between Athens and other schools (Athens is what started this whole debate) is not that great. 100-150 boys is not that big of a disparity. However, look at DI schools now. You cannot tell me that all the Cincinnati/Columbus/Cleveland schools with over 1000 boys playing other D1 schools such as Lancaster with 400 less boys makes a huge difference in size.
I have 2 points for you on the matter.
You said Bob's and Joe's---Doesn't competition within make you better as a football team? I would say that it does. Most small schools have 1 QB or 1 TB from 3rd grade until they are a senior, little competition within to motivate them to be better. Some athletes make themselves better through self motivation but that cannot compare if you are competing for playing time each and every practice like kids are in bigger schools. Take Cincy St. X for example: they had 71 SENIORS two years ago. Think of the competition they had each and every day. Small schools are not capable of that.
My next point is that I would put Logan and NY on the same level as far as your categories of tradition/community/commitment/consistency up until Amyx (spelling) left. NY got the best of NY this year which takes away from my next point. But would you say that two teams that are even in those categories and one is a D5 and one is D3, would you say that the D3 team wins majority of the matchups?
Also in your debate Athens is not a good example. They are a D2/D3 team with 60 boys on the team (all 3 levels). Take Big Walnut for example a D2 school with 85 boys on the team. That makes a huuuge difference.
71 SENIORS ON ONE TEAM
AND SIZE MAKES NO DIFFERENCE????????
.
.
.
yea and thats what I tell my wife too
Re: Big School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
Excellent post I couldn't agree more.OneHitWonder wrote:As a casual reader of SEOP I thought that I would weigh in on a subject that seams to continually be brought up by posters throughout these forums. School Size. As someone who has been involved with football as a parent and a coach I think that I have some insight into the entire big school little school debate. In my opinion size (at least in Southeastern Ohio) is one of the least important factors in determining how successful a high school football program will be.
The real factors in my opinion are:
1. Community – No matter how big or small your community is are they committed to football. I mean really committed, Live and Breath Football. Fill the Stands 3 hours early, Take big crowds to all away games, kind of committed. To the point where your community draws it’s identity from its team.
2. Commitment – Commitment to do what it takes to be successful. Once again this has to be community wide, it’s everyone in the community doing what’s requires to be successful from the parents to the store owners, teachers, principals, coaches, players. EVERYONE.
3. Consistency – In order to be successful you must have consistency throughout your program from the top to the bottom, everyone working toward a common goal. Foe example N-Y has had three coaches in their entire schools history while there was a time in the 90’s when Athens had 3 coaches in three years.
4. Tradition – As defined by Webster’s “a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting.†Winners Win. Teams that are steeped in tradition and expect to win are hard to beat on a Friday night regardless of size.
5. Bobs and Joes – Face it great athletes make great coaches. When a school has a run of exceptional athletes then their football program will probably benefit. Granted the first four items on my list go a long way toward developing great athletes, but we all know that every once in a while they get dropped in your lap and you just try not to screw things up.
Only when the above factors are equal or close to being equal does size come into consideration. I will agree that if the playing field is equal on all fronts then the larger school should have the advantage due to greater resources, ie players.
But here in little old Southeastern Ohio I’ll take the team with the above factors over size any day.
Re: Big School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
To Funny Logan was strong and could beat any one in the area a few years ago and the first thing people said was they are big and should.
Now they are down and it's about territory.
Not picking on Logan but Athens lost for years now they dominate the League and now it's our size shouldn't matter because we our so spread out.
Athens left the SEOAL because they could not compete period.
Don't make them out to be a victim because of that they are winning against smaller schools period.
let them make playoffs and get crushed and then let us know why they lost bigger school more players to choose from can't wait to hear it then.
You play and dominate div 5 schools that win and feast off the point's where a team like Jackson plays schools closer to them on the level and they have a bad year and have to win out to make it.
Can't wait till it all pans out and look forward to Athens Jackson play in week 11 if it shakes out and Athens better hope for Jackson because Jackson will call the dogs off.
Yes big schools to small schools does matter it comes down to paper Tigers to the real Tigers.
Brag all you want at being 7-0 but if you never beat no one then it's all moot in my opinion you are only as good as the teams you beat.
Now they are down and it's about territory.
Not picking on Logan but Athens lost for years now they dominate the League and now it's our size shouldn't matter because we our so spread out.
Athens left the SEOAL because they could not compete period.
Don't make them out to be a victim because of that they are winning against smaller schools period.
let them make playoffs and get crushed and then let us know why they lost bigger school more players to choose from can't wait to hear it then.
You play and dominate div 5 schools that win and feast off the point's where a team like Jackson plays schools closer to them on the level and they have a bad year and have to win out to make it.
Can't wait till it all pans out and look forward to Athens Jackson play in week 11 if it shakes out and Athens better hope for Jackson because Jackson will call the dogs off.
Yes big schools to small schools does matter it comes down to paper Tigers to the real Tigers.
Brag all you want at being 7-0 but if you never beat no one then it's all moot in my opinion you are only as good as the teams you beat.
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Re: Big School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
maniac66-
Your assessment of Athens is off and sight of Jackson is skewed.
Athens Schedule – (8-0)
DII – (2-0) DIII – (2-0) DIV – (2-0) DV – (2-0)
Remaining Schedule DIV (Well – 4-4) DV (NY – 8-0)
Athens is (2-0) vs. 1 Division Higher
Athens is (2-0) vs. Even Division
Athens is (2-0) vs. 1 Division Lower
Athens is (2-0) vs. 2 Division Lower
Jackson Schedule - (8-0)
DI - (1-0) DII - (2-0) DIII - (1-0) DIV - (4-0)
Remaining Schedule DII (Chil - 2-6) DIII (GA - 5-3)
Jackson is (1-0) vs. 2 Division Higher
Jackson is (2-0) vs. 1 Division Higher
Jackson is (1-0) vs. Even Division
Jackson is (4-0) vs. 1 Division Lower
Athens and Jackson have (6) of the Same Scheduled Opponents --Combined Record (16-32)
DII - Warren (4-4)
DII - Chillicothe (2-6)
DIII - Galia Academy (4-4)
DIII - Vinton County (1-7)
DIV - Wellston (4-4)
DIV - Waverly (1-7)
*- League Game
Athens (4) Different Opponents -- Combined Record (23-8)
DIV - Meigs (5-3)*
DV - Coal Grove (4-3)
DV - Nelsonville-York (8-0)*
DV - Alexander (6-2)*
Jackson (4) Different Opponents -- Combined Record (9-23)
DI - St. Charles (2-6)
DII - Logan (1-7)*
DIV - Ironton (4-4)
DIV - Portsmouth (2-6)*
There we have all the data. Both Teams are (8-0). Athens was Ranked 5th and Jackson 6th in the Region. You thump your chest on the fact that you say Athens only beats small schools and Jackson beats big schools but that is where your logic gets fuzy. There is not a team on the Jackson's schedule that I see Athens could not beat this season. We have beat six of them already. We could beat Logan, Portsmouth and would be an interesting match-up with St. Charles. Now, Ironton is like a Nelsonville-York. I definitely think we could beat Ironton, but I will say I will have a better picture of that after Week Ten. You hold against Athens that they have smaller schools in their league, but looking at the (6) games Athens/Jackson share they did a helluva job of scheduling a mix of schools that would not hurt the fact that the TVC-Ohio has (2 DIII)(2 DIV)(2 DV) schools.
The three DV Schools Athens play(ed) are (NY-8-0)(Alex-6-2)(CG-4-3). I would not call that playing a weak DV schools especially because Alexander is the biggest DV school and are 1 boy away from being DIV. You say Jackson plays opponents closer to their size like DII (Log-1-7), DI (St.Ch-2-6) DIII (VC-1-7).
You say your only as good as the teams you beat.
Athens is Ranked 5th & Jackson is Ranked 6th.
Flip their schedule and Jackson would probably be 5th and Athens 6th.
Both Teams are playing good football. Don't use the size thing as a crutch. I know NY doesn't. I know Ironton doesn't.
Athens has beats some good teams...my question to you, who has Jackson beat?
A DI St.Charles with 2 wins, A weak DII Logan....their biggest win most likely is DIV Ironton...
Jackson needs to look in the mirror because they are more like Athens then they think they are. I'd love a Week 11 Showdown between Athens and Jackson...
Your assessment of Athens is off and sight of Jackson is skewed.
Athens Schedule – (8-0)
DII – (2-0) DIII – (2-0) DIV – (2-0) DV – (2-0)
Remaining Schedule DIV (Well – 4-4) DV (NY – 8-0)
Athens is (2-0) vs. 1 Division Higher
Athens is (2-0) vs. Even Division
Athens is (2-0) vs. 1 Division Lower
Athens is (2-0) vs. 2 Division Lower
Jackson Schedule - (8-0)
DI - (1-0) DII - (2-0) DIII - (1-0) DIV - (4-0)
Remaining Schedule DII (Chil - 2-6) DIII (GA - 5-3)
Jackson is (1-0) vs. 2 Division Higher
Jackson is (2-0) vs. 1 Division Higher
Jackson is (1-0) vs. Even Division
Jackson is (4-0) vs. 1 Division Lower
Athens and Jackson have (6) of the Same Scheduled Opponents --Combined Record (16-32)
DII - Warren (4-4)
DII - Chillicothe (2-6)
DIII - Galia Academy (4-4)
DIII - Vinton County (1-7)
DIV - Wellston (4-4)
DIV - Waverly (1-7)
*- League Game
Athens (4) Different Opponents -- Combined Record (23-8)
DIV - Meigs (5-3)*
DV - Coal Grove (4-3)
DV - Nelsonville-York (8-0)*
DV - Alexander (6-2)*
Jackson (4) Different Opponents -- Combined Record (9-23)
DI - St. Charles (2-6)
DII - Logan (1-7)*
DIV - Ironton (4-4)
DIV - Portsmouth (2-6)*
There we have all the data. Both Teams are (8-0). Athens was Ranked 5th and Jackson 6th in the Region. You thump your chest on the fact that you say Athens only beats small schools and Jackson beats big schools but that is where your logic gets fuzy. There is not a team on the Jackson's schedule that I see Athens could not beat this season. We have beat six of them already. We could beat Logan, Portsmouth and would be an interesting match-up with St. Charles. Now, Ironton is like a Nelsonville-York. I definitely think we could beat Ironton, but I will say I will have a better picture of that after Week Ten. You hold against Athens that they have smaller schools in their league, but looking at the (6) games Athens/Jackson share they did a helluva job of scheduling a mix of schools that would not hurt the fact that the TVC-Ohio has (2 DIII)(2 DIV)(2 DV) schools.
The three DV Schools Athens play(ed) are (NY-8-0)(Alex-6-2)(CG-4-3). I would not call that playing a weak DV schools especially because Alexander is the biggest DV school and are 1 boy away from being DIV. You say Jackson plays opponents closer to their size like DII (Log-1-7), DI (St.Ch-2-6) DIII (VC-1-7).
You say your only as good as the teams you beat.
Athens is Ranked 5th & Jackson is Ranked 6th.
Flip their schedule and Jackson would probably be 5th and Athens 6th.
Both Teams are playing good football. Don't use the size thing as a crutch. I know NY doesn't. I know Ironton doesn't.
Athens has beats some good teams...my question to you, who has Jackson beat?
A DI St.Charles with 2 wins, A weak DII Logan....their biggest win most likely is DIV Ironton...
Jackson needs to look in the mirror because they are more like Athens then they think they are. I'd love a Week 11 Showdown between Athens and Jackson...
Re: Big School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
Yes a St. Chuck team who dresses 80 kids and play in the OCC against defending state champs and other teams like DeSales. You're right they are such an easy team to beat
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Re: Big School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
OK, guys plain and simple the school that can get the most kids involved has the advantage. A school with a larger enrollment obviously has an advantage in this category, sure there are plenty of other factors that affect the schools but this is one you have no control over.
Example, people have talked about larger schools like Logan that cover such a huge area that it makes it harder to utilize their large enrollment. Logan has an enrollment of 478, let’s say that 25 percent of them though live too far out to be able to make it to practices every day, so they never play. That would drop their useable enrollment to 358. At 358 they still have an advantage over other schools in the SEOAL. Chillicothe 339 Gallia Academy 258 Jackson 259 Portsmouth 179 Warren 356. Now consider that each of the other schools have their own problems that make it impossible for some kids to play as well.
Size is an obvious factor, and the size of a schools district can be as well but it isn’t too much of one when they are playing smaller schools because they still end up with more kids even if we use the 25 percent I did which I think is a high estimation. It becomes a factor when they play teams their own size that don’t have to deal with the large district problem.
Example, people have talked about larger schools like Logan that cover such a huge area that it makes it harder to utilize their large enrollment. Logan has an enrollment of 478, let’s say that 25 percent of them though live too far out to be able to make it to practices every day, so they never play. That would drop their useable enrollment to 358. At 358 they still have an advantage over other schools in the SEOAL. Chillicothe 339 Gallia Academy 258 Jackson 259 Portsmouth 179 Warren 356. Now consider that each of the other schools have their own problems that make it impossible for some kids to play as well.
Size is an obvious factor, and the size of a schools district can be as well but it isn’t too much of one when they are playing smaller schools because they still end up with more kids even if we use the 25 percent I did which I think is a high estimation. It becomes a factor when they play teams their own size that don’t have to deal with the large district problem.
Re: Big School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
If school size has no bearing then I think everyone should schedule Div.I opponents
Re: Big School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
Year in and year out the number of male students (since we are talking football) should make a difference. You have the exceptions on the winning side,,the Burg and West seem to have successful seasons despite the numbers of boys. On the other hand you have PHS that does not have success on the gridiron year in and year out. Now some of you wil say because of the league, maybe, but facts are facts. A coach like Lutz, regardless of the size of the school has success year in and year out. This year, for Ironton is a down year and they still will win 5 or 6! Burg lost a great bunch of Seniors and what are they 7-1? Next year they should dominate the SOC. OneHitWonder has the right concept, IMO, but schools with larger male enrollment should do better in the long run..The other hand you schools such as Notre Dame, with what 40 boys that are competing at a very high level this year, but what happens when this group graduates? Do they fall back like they have been the past several years or does their coach make that much difference..Only time will tell. In Arizona they went to a new region concept for sports and they have schools with 1200-1500 students playing in the same region as schools with 2500-3000 students,,they outcome is the smaller schools are getting trounced..and some of these schools that are smaller when they play against schools of equal size win big..IMO the final bottom line for high school sports is....students that WANT to win, students that come to play and not just earn a letter, a COACHING!!! In High School a great coach is worth at least 2 touchdowns....This is jusm my opinion....great subject....
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Re: Big School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
How is my logic flawed?tl895 wrote:flawed logic....
There are many other aspects that effect a team’s competitiveness besides enrollment and district size, as well. Burg is helped by being a more affluent district, they have fewer kids on reduced or free lunch, and more parents that are involved because they have the means to be.
Portsmouth on the other hand has around 3/4ths of the students eligible for reduced or free lunch, many more kids from single parent homes, making it harder for them to get kids to practice, harder for them to buy the things the kids need for the sport. And it means there are less parents that are involved with their children whether it be sports or academically.
Then yes Portsmouth is punished by the schedule they play. Having to play in a league where every team is much larger, then filling your non league schedule with the SOC’s normal top teams West and Burg , then Ironton and a D2 team in Wilmington. Conversely West plays 4 teams from the OVC which is widely considered on here to be a weaker conference then the SEOAL or SOC, a game against PHS, and the SOC schedule made up of schools much closer to their size.
Not saying that PHS is better than any of the SOC schools, but what I am saying is that they are a prime example of a team that is hurt by enrollment. Then having to play larger schools and taking it on the chin each year has hurt the football culture and made it where fewer kids put the effort into be successful because it is so much harder for us to compete then other local schools because we have to play a much harder schedule. This harder schedule forces us to lose more games, which hurts morale, and hurts the program and then makes it harder to compete with schools our own size such as the Burgs and West.
If PHS could play a soc schools schedule such as West’s they more than likely pick up 3 wins over the 4 OVC schools they play prior to league play beginning, wining 3 out of 4 would change the atmosphere of the season and give a team confidence, that they would finish no worse than 5-5.
Also the rate at which our enrollment has dropped has been something that I believe has had an adverse effect. In 2000, we were a D3 football team and now we are around 5 boys away from going D5, yet the leave of teams we play has changed very little if at any. I actually believe 2002 on are stronger schedules then the regular season of 2000.
Re: Big School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
questionmark,
I'm pretty sure maniac66 is an Ironton fan, so I don't think he's necessarily speaking on behalf of Jackson.
Athens has a solid schedule. That's evident when you see where they're ranked in Region 12.
Jackson's schedule has been a little unfortunate. Logan is usually one of the premier programs in this area. Waverly usually wins its fair share of games, and the SEOAL (as a whole) is usually a little better than this. Not to mention the fact that Ironton is 4-4.
St. Charles is 2-6, but look at the teams that have beaten them. The six teams that have beaten them have a combined record of 37-10...
Jackson (8-0) - Ranked 7th in D3 Region 12
Eastmoor Academy (7-1) - Ranked 1st in D3 Region 10
Beechcroft (7-1) - Ranked 5th in D2 Region 7
Canal Fulton Northwest (6-2) - Ranked 6th in D3 Region 11
Canal Winchester (5-3) - Ranked 13th in D2 Region 7
Columbus DeSales (4-3) - Ranked 5th in D3 Region 10
So as of right now, St. Charles has six losses and five of them are to playoff-bound football teams. There are very few teams in SE Ohio that would even be competitve against them. Athens might be one of them, but I don't know. I watched Athens play once this year, and was very impressed with them. Also, I'm sure they're much better now than when I saw them against Gallia Academy. That said, if Jackson and Athens are both fortunate enough to make it to Week 11, I'd definitely like to see a matchup between the Ironmen and the Bulldogs.
I'm pretty sure maniac66 is an Ironton fan, so I don't think he's necessarily speaking on behalf of Jackson.
Athens has a solid schedule. That's evident when you see where they're ranked in Region 12.
Jackson's schedule has been a little unfortunate. Logan is usually one of the premier programs in this area. Waverly usually wins its fair share of games, and the SEOAL (as a whole) is usually a little better than this. Not to mention the fact that Ironton is 4-4.
St. Charles is 2-6, but look at the teams that have beaten them. The six teams that have beaten them have a combined record of 37-10...
Jackson (8-0) - Ranked 7th in D3 Region 12
Eastmoor Academy (7-1) - Ranked 1st in D3 Region 10
Beechcroft (7-1) - Ranked 5th in D2 Region 7
Canal Fulton Northwest (6-2) - Ranked 6th in D3 Region 11
Canal Winchester (5-3) - Ranked 13th in D2 Region 7
Columbus DeSales (4-3) - Ranked 5th in D3 Region 10
So as of right now, St. Charles has six losses and five of them are to playoff-bound football teams. There are very few teams in SE Ohio that would even be competitve against them. Athens might be one of them, but I don't know. I watched Athens play once this year, and was very impressed with them. Also, I'm sure they're much better now than when I saw them against Gallia Academy. That said, if Jackson and Athens are both fortunate enough to make it to Week 11, I'd definitely like to see a matchup between the Ironmen and the Bulldogs.
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Re: Big School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
Why have 6 divisions then and 6 state champs and why use the Harbin system?
Re: Big School vs. Little School Bah Bah Bah.
Yes I am a Ironton fan and am not looking to stir any trouble up between Jackson or Athens I just believe Jackson is a much stronger and better team this year.ironman02 wrote:questionmark,
I'm pretty sure maniac66 is an Ironton fan, so I don't think he's necessarily speaking on behalf of Jackson.
Athens has a solid schedule. That's evident when you see where they're ranked in Region 12.
Jackson's schedule has been a little unfortunate. Logan is usually one of the premier programs in this area. Waverly usually wins its fair share of games, and the SEOAL (as a whole) is usually a little better than this. Not to mention the fact that Ironton is 4-4.
St. Charles is 2-6, but look at the teams that have beaten them. The six teams that have beaten them have a combined record of 37-10...
Jackson (8-0) - Ranked 7th in D3 Region 12
Eastmoor Academy (7-1) - Ranked 1st in D3 Region 10
Beechcroft (7-1) - Ranked 5th in D2 Region 7
Canal Fulton Northwest (6-2) - Ranked 6th in D3 Region 11
Canal Winchester (5-3) - Ranked 13th in D2 Region 7
Columbus DeSales (4-3) - Ranked 5th in D3 Region 10
So as of right now, St. Charles has six losses and five of them are to playoff-bound football teams. There are very few teams in SE Ohio that would even be competitve against them. Athens might be one of them, but I don't know. I watched Athens play once this year, and was very impressed with them. Also, I'm sure they're much better now than when I saw them against Gallia Academy. That said, if Jackson and Athens are both fortunate enough to make it to Week 11, I'd definitely like to see a matchup between the Ironmen and the Bulldogs.
Ironton my be down but that don't mean Jackson is any less than a good strong team I seen Jackson play Ironton and Jackson is not only talented but a well coached and disciplined team.
I do believe Jackson would have their way with Athens and that what I think Not saying it to stir up the pot sorry Jackson fans for anyone thinking I am.
But it comes down to it playing teams as strong as you are and better makes a big difference when the playoffs start now matter how much talent you have competition makes you that much better in the long run.