SEOAL 2010

[Dundas]

Thanks to all, for you help make my case.

First, the OCC ? I suspect Logan would JUMP at an invitation for the OCC but that hasn't happened & don't expect it will. After all, Logan ends up playing those teams in the playoffs, FB or basketball. And that would greatly improve the competitve level for Logan over the SEOAL and make the Chiefs an even bigger threat to go farther in playoffs. At this point , the OCC doesn't want Logan, so the status quo remains.

Second, we have an admission of the reality of the situation -- more competitve games aren't scheduled because you might LOSE some !! Gee, really ? Then how do you get better ?? Playing lesser teams ? That pretty much sums up most of SEO and is the direct reason the area lags the rest of the state. After all, no one is forced to play OUT of your division in the playoff. You'll still be playing teams from YOUR division but they'll be a heck of alot better because they played BETTER competition.

Now, as to the 3rd point, look at a map. No one has to go very far to find competition, even in SEO. While Jackson plays teams like Wellston or Vinton Co. who rarely, if ever beat them, they avoid area teams Portsmouth West & Wheelersburg. Even Waverly, who got run out of the SEOAL because they rarely won games ,could be replaced with Ironton. Presto !! Ditto the same teams for Gallia. Add in out of state teams like Ashland or Huntington. Or avoid weak sister Athens, faking it in the TVC and go for the tougher team, N-Y. It isn't always about scheduling bigger teams, but could be. Its about scheduling tougher competition to make your program better. And yes, that risks getting beat until your kids play up. Thats how you get better.

But SEO, not just the SEOAL, has made avoiding competition a habit for decades , except for a handful of programs. Thats why the area isn't going anywhere and why the area will never be very competitve with the rest of the state. Those are the simple facts. And the truth.

...and losing. Logan isnt the shrine of SEO. They are normally a good team but to talk like they are the only thing here and everyone else is at fault for SEO football not being good enough on a state level is somewhat cocky for a team that hasnt gone very far in the playoffs themselves.

[southeastbeast#1]

every one needs to quit arguing there is no doubt who will take league and it is logan until someone proves otherwise

[cavalierfan1995]

logan in the occ?yeah why not.put them up against upper arlington and see how they manage.

[trojandave]

There are some schools who would rather get a big gate from certain games and fill their pockets with the cash to help fund an athetic program.......and if football doesn't bring in the bucks, the entire athletic program could be in dire straits........at the same time, some of these same schools could benefit from scheduling up IF their goals are to win a regional or state championship.......some schools aren't fully committed to that.

To win a regional or state title, scheduling up (talking quality not necessarily a higher division) is important........making the playoffs is a very nice accomplishment, but advancing a couple of games into the playoffs is much more difficult but made easier by playing NC teams that offer a different level of talent than what is normally seen by a league schedule.......to that point, I do agree with Paladin.

[Paladin]

Thanks trojandave. Its really about priorities. Logan made a decision years ago to vastly improve & make their schedule more difficult , even if it meant taking losses because it would pay off with two goals -- make the Chiefs better for League competition ( and improve chances at winning the SEOAL) and improve their competitive level for chance at better success in the playoffs. I can't argue with the results( and I had real concerns when they made the move to make the schedule way tougher), even though Logan usually only goes a couple of games into the playoffs before losing. I remain disappointed in SEO and especially the SEOAL because no one has followed the lead and the area remains dead last in the state in competitve ability. I hear the excuses......... more gate $$$$$$$$, don't want to risk more losses, no one to play, don't want to travel to play a quality opponent, etc . No matter the reason offered, no matter the "rationale", nothing is being done by the vast majority of the area to lift the competitve level of SEO. Only a handful of teams take risks. Thus , the area remains doomed, even when a school gets lucky with a class or two together which could bring them tremendous success, they aren't ready for the higher competitve level and end up not reaching the pinnacle of their ability. Its a shame, but it is what it is. The area could be better but won't be.

[Orange and Brown]

The sun will either rise or it won't Either way I'm good. The kids are having a good time, then I'm having a good time!! I don't care about the rest of the state, They sure as heck don't care about us!

[dazed&confused]

The 800 pound gorilla in the room that no one wants to talk about when discussing SE Ohio's performance in the playoff's is the lack of speed and pure athletes at the skilled positions, including D-line. Logan got burned by athletes from Brookhaven who could take a small pass over the middle and turn it into something big. The farther up the ladder you go (at least in the larger divisions), the more you have to have speed and athletes. And large, inner-city schools have a larger pool to dip into for that. Logan is a big dog in SE Ohio but they are, let's say, homogenous. Take that any way you want to, I said it.

[Orange and Brown]

The 800 pound gorilla in the room that no one wants to talk about when discussing SE Ohio's performance in the playoff's is the lack of speed and pure athletes at the skilled positions, including D-line. Logan got burned by athletes from Brookhaven who could take a small pass over the middle and turn it into something big. The farther up the ladder you go (at least in the larger divisions), the more you have to have speed and athletes. And large, inner-city schools have a larger pool to dip into for that. Logan is a big dog in SE Ohio but they are, let's say, homogenous. Take that any way you want to, I said it.

Very well put!

[JChipwood]

Nice adjective but very very true!

[ironmen1987]

The 800 pound gorilla in the room that no one wants to talk about when discussing SE Ohio's performance in the playoff's is the lack of speed and pure athletes at the skilled positions, including D-line. Logan got burned by athletes from Brookhaven who could take a small pass over the middle and turn it into something big. The farther up the ladder you go (at least in the larger divisions), the more you have to have speed and athletes. And large, inner-city schools have a larger pool to dip into for that. Logan is a big dog in SE Ohio but they are, let's say, homogenous. Take that any way you want to, I said it.

Very well put!

kinda reminds me of a little game a few years back between the big bad Buckeyes and some gators from Florida....

[JoeRoberts]

Why is that everyone always talks about football paying the bills...and yet I've heard superintendents and principals and athletic directors time and again speak publicly that because of the money spent on equipment, the staffing, officials, ancilalry costs, that in the end football makes little or no money?

I'm sure I'll get attacked for bringing this up, but I've heard it with my own two ears.

[JoeRoberts]

But here is the math I have been given by those in administration:

10 assistant coaches at $3500 each + 1 head coach at $6500 = $42,000
Equipment, Support= $600 per player x 60 players = $36,000
Ancillary costs (travel, officials, etc) = $5,000
TOTAL = $83,000

So if we use the numbers you provide = 5 games x 3000 x $5 each = $75,000

Here is an interesting article in the Pitsburgh Tribune. I have excerpted from sections from it, but the link is:

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... tball.html


•Football was the area's biggest sport last year, with a $6.6 million price tag and 8,685 male participants.

•School districts spent more on football than on all girls' sports combined.

•Averaging $765 each, football players cost more to train, equip and support than any other high school athletes.

•Contradicting popular belief, records released by elite football schools such as West Allegheny and Shaler Area in Allegheny County and New Castle in Lawrence County revealed that their football programs each lose tens of thousands of taxpayer dollars every year.

The fact that football is the most expensive high school sport surprises no one and breaks no laws. Congress has recognized that football equipment costs more; that it requires more officials and participants; and - for the sake of safety - that protective gear gets expensive.

Congress even amended the law so that schools could tailor spending to the unique needs of each sport. A high school can spend more on a boys' football team, for example, than a girls' cross country team because the former costs more than the latter.

But schools can't let football sack other sports programs. They can't use football as an excuse to deny girls' teams adequate funding, time in the weight room or time on the field. And if certain perks are given to boys that are denied to girls - such as shoes or posh locker rooms - the U.S. Office for Civil Rights can step in.

Brake said school officials likewise should stop pleading for an exemption because football is a "revenue-producing sport." Of the 40 schools that disclosed gate receipts to the Trib, every one lost thousands of dollars. In fact, according to school records, most football programs recouped less than 40 cents for every dollar spent.

That proved true even at championship-caliber schools such as Belle Vernon Area (lost $18,000), New Castle ($35,000), Shaler Area ($43,000) and WPIAL champion West Allegheny ($49,000).

At New Castle, for example, the football team loses more money than it costs to run every single girls' nonrevenue sport - nearly twice over.

Football's kid glove treatment rankles Joe Spiker, a board member in the Southeastern Greene School District. There, the Mapletown Maples are perennial losers on the field. But Spiker says girls' athletics lose even more during budget talks.

Other board members say he's anti-football. He says they're anti-fairness.

"Heck no, I'm not opposed to football," Spiker said. "But I am opposed to putting it on a pedestal above any other sport, which is the way it's done in Greene County and western Pennsylvania.

"In my district, people have come up to me and said, `You're not for football.' I said, `Look, I went to college on a football scholarship. If it wasn't for football, I wouldn't have gone.'"

[Orange and Brown]

But here is the math I have been given by those in administration:

10 assistant coaches at $3500 each + 1 head coach at $6500 = $42,000
Equipment, Support= $600 per player x 60 players = $36,000
Ancillary costs (travel, officials, etc) = $5,000
TOTAL = $83,000

So if we use the numbers you provide = 5 games x 3000 x $5 each = $75,000

Here is an interesting article in the Pitsburgh Tribune. I have excerpted from sections from it, but the link is:

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... tball.html


•Football was the area's biggest sport last year, with a $6.6 million price tag and 8,685 male participants.

•School districts spent more on football than on all girls' sports combined.

•Averaging $765 each, football players cost more to train, equip and support than any other high school athletes.

•Contradicting popular belief, records released by elite football schools such as West Allegheny and Shaler Area in Allegheny County and New Castle in Lawrence County revealed that their football programs each lose tens of thousands of taxpayer dollars every year.

The fact that football is the most expensive high school sport surprises no one and breaks no laws. Congress has recognized that football equipment costs more; that it requires more officials and participants; and - for the sake of safety - that protective gear gets expensive.

Congress even amended the law so that schools could tailor spending to the unique needs of each sport. A high school can spend more on a boys' football team, for example, than a girls' cross country team because the former costs more than the latter.

But schools can't let football sack other sports programs. They can't use football as an excuse to deny girls' teams adequate funding, time in the weight room or time on the field. And if certain perks are given to boys that are denied to girls - such as shoes or posh locker rooms - the U.S. Office for Civil Rights can step in.

Brake said school officials likewise should stop pleading for an exemption because football is a "revenue-producing sport." Of the 40 schools that disclosed gate receipts to the Trib, every one lost thousands of dollars. In fact, according to school records, most football programs recouped less than 40 cents for every dollar spent.

That proved true even at championship-caliber schools such as Belle Vernon Area (lost $18,000), New Castle ($35,000), Shaler Area ($43,000) and WPIAL champion West Allegheny ($49,000).

At New Castle, for example, the football team loses more money than it costs to run every single girls' nonrevenue sport - nearly twice over.

Football's kid glove treatment rankles Joe Spiker, a board member in the Southeastern Greene School District. There, the Mapletown Maples are perennial losers on the field. But Spiker says girls' athletics lose even more during budget talks.

Other board members say he's anti-football. He says they're anti-fairness.

"Heck no, I'm not opposed to football," Spiker said. "But I am opposed to putting it on a pedestal above any other sport, which is the way it's done in Greene County and western Pennsylvania.

"In my district, people have come up to me and said, `You're not for football.' I said, `Look, I went to college on a football scholarship. If it wasn't for football, I wouldn't have gone.'"

Where is your school district? Your assistant coaches make 3,500 each? WOW!!!!!

10 assistant coaches?
No wonder football doesn't make any money at your school district.

[Paladin]

I got a chuckle out of this. When someone puts the ACTUAL amounts spent annually out in detailed form, then you can have this discusssion. AttendaNCE , TICKET PRICES, etc are easy to figure. Then , the fudging begins. Equipment ? As a start up cost, its expensive but you annually don't buy new equipment. You have it cleaned & reconditioned ( helmets). And, where are the accounting for "booster clubs" and their annual spending for FB.That $$$$ must be given to the schools in Ohio, even if it is earmarked for FB expenditures & placed in the general fund. Even our smaller schools boosters raise 10's of thousands of $$$$$$ & buy new equipment, uniforms, etc. The biggest school in the area, Warren Harding would blow all those numbers away as they have big attendance, multiple booster clubs, 50-50 raffles of 5-10K, PAID PARKING, ETC. The field is often multi-use ( FB, soccer, track field events, boys & girls, etc). I'll call B.S. on this one as most schools in my metro area not only make money, but DO FUND other sports from FB when you add in the booster club contributions plus ticket sales. Tickets here in the area are $6 and 3k is small, maybe for a smaller school , but schools that size don't field 60 players either. 30, maybe 35.

The article looks like a hit job for Title IX. If you have nothing to hide Joe, name the school system & the H.S. involved.

[Orange and Brown]

I got a chuckle out of this. When someone puts the ACTUAL amounts spent annually out in detailed form, then you can have this discusssion. AttendaNCE , TICKET PRICES, etc are easy to figure. Then , the fudging begins. Equipment ? As a start up cost, its expensive but you annually don't buy new equipment. You have it cleaned & reconditioned ( helmets). And, where are the accounting for "booster clubs" and their annual spending for FB.That $$$$ must be given to the schools in Ohio, even if it is earmarked for FB expenditures & placed in the general fund. Even our smaller schools boosters raise 10's of thousands of $$$$$$ & buy new equipment, uniforms, etc. The biggest school in the area, Warren Harding would blow all those numbers away as they have big attendance, multiple booster clubs, 50-50 raffles of 5-10K, PAID PARKING, ETC. The field is often multi-use ( FB, soccer, track field events, boys & girls, etc). I'll call B.S. on this one as most schools in my metro area not only make money, but DO FUND other sports from FB when you add in the booster club contributions plus ticket sales. Tickets here in the area are $6 and 3k is small, maybe for a smaller school , but schools that size don't field 60 players either. 30, maybe 35.

The article looks like a hit job for Title IX. If you have nothing to hide Joe, name the school system & the H.S. involved.

Gotta agree 100%

[Orange and Brown]

But here is the math I have been given by those in administration:

10 assistant coaches at $3500 each + 1 head coach at $6500 = $42,000
Equipment, Support= $600 per player x 60 players = $36,000
Ancillary costs (travel, officials, etc) = $5,000
TOTAL = $83,000

So if we use the numbers you provide = 5 games x 3000 x $5 each = $75,000

Here is an interesting article in the Pitsburgh Tribune. I have excerpted from sections from it, but the link is:

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... tball.html


•Football was the area's biggest sport last year, with a $6.6 million price tag and 8,685 male participants.

•School districts spent more on football than on all girls' sports combined.

•Averaging $765 each, football players cost more to train, equip and support than any other high school athletes.

•Contradicting popular belief, records released by elite football schools such as West Allegheny and Shaler Area in Allegheny County and New Castle in Lawrence County revealed that their football programs each lose tens of thousands of taxpayer dollars every year.

The fact that football is the most expensive high school sport surprises no one and breaks no laws. Congress has recognized that football equipment costs more; that it requires more officials and participants; and - for the sake of safety - that protective gear gets expensive.

Congress even amended the law so that schools could tailor spending to the unique needs of each sport. A high school can spend more on a boys' football team, for example, than a girls' cross country team because the former costs more than the latter.

But schools can't let football sack other sports programs. They can't use football as an excuse to deny girls' teams adequate funding, time in the weight room or time on the field. And if certain perks are given to boys that are denied to girls - such as shoes or posh locker rooms - the U.S. Office for Civil Rights can step in.

Brake said school officials likewise should stop pleading for an exemption because football is a "revenue-producing sport." Of the 40 schools that disclosed gate receipts to the Trib, every one lost thousands of dollars. In fact, according to school records, most football programs recouped less than 40 cents for every dollar spent.

That proved true even at championship-caliber schools such as Belle Vernon Area (lost $18,000), New Castle ($35,000), Shaler Area ($43,000) and WPIAL champion West Allegheny ($49,000).

At New Castle, for example, the football team loses more money than it costs to run every single girls' nonrevenue sport - nearly twice over.

Football's kid glove treatment rankles Joe Spiker, a board member in the Southeastern Greene School District. There, the Mapletown Maples are perennial losers on the field. But Spiker says girls' athletics lose even more during budget talks.

Other board members say he's anti-football. He says they're anti-fairness.

"Heck no, I'm not opposed to football," Spiker said. "But I am opposed to putting it on a pedestal above any other sport, which is the way it's done in Greene County and western Pennsylvania.

"In my district, people have come up to me and said, `You're not for football.' I said, `Look, I went to college on a football scholarship. If it wasn't for football, I wouldn't have gone.'"

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say this was either poorly researched or just a bunch of B.S. There aren't a whole lotta schools in Ohio who lose money with football. May they just need better A.D's in charge!!

[LetsGoPSU]

A little bit of info on Pittsburgh City Schools. This past season our team from Bedford travelled for a playoff game 125 miles to play a City School. All Pittsburgh City schools play in the City stadium which is financed by the City itself.
Bedford took four buses for students plus the number of parents and community people that drove to the game. Probably had 2500 people. Our opponents whom could catch a public transportation bus (parking is horribly limited) or even walk to the stadium,showed up. All 19 of them. We counted from across the field.They had 19 people for a playoff game.
Granted they are not the State Power of Belle Vernon or New Castle, (non city schools) but that was just mind blowing to me.
I believe that the true revenue for athletic programs is provided by an excellent Booster program.Our Quarterback Club does a fantastic job and we provide our kids new uniforms appx every three years, not a dime of tax payer money goes into this.

[trojandave]

I know this is a football forum, but at Portsmouth our basketball team will be taking a trip to Florida next season.......it will be a 5 day trip with 3 games and the team will fly out of Columbus........the basketball program raised the money itself with the cost being estimated around $10,000........no football monies helping to pay the cost.

Like I have previously posted, some schools are fully committed to advancing to the state finals on a regular basis........Ironton is one of those schools.......talk to a Fighting Tiger fan on the street and he/she will probably tell you that the goal at Ironton is the state.......and anything short of that is a disappointment.

Logan just doesn't want to make the playoffs......they want to advance, win regionals and the state.......they haven't gotten there yet, but they will keep trying and will be committed to doing so. SEOAL titles are nice to Chieftain fans, but I think they would much rather win a regional than a league title.

At Portsmouth, we have won 4 state basketball titles with 3 state runnerups.......not just because of talent and coaching........GOOD SCHEDULING OUTSIDE OF SE OHIO HAD A LOT TO DO WITH IT!!........and just because we haven't won a state title since 1988 doesn't mean we don't want to win another one!!

This coming football season at Portsmouth is one with high expectations.......many, including myself, think that not only could the Trojans win the SEOAL but challenge for the state title in D4........and in talking to a lot of the kids who play, they don't run from those expectations but instead embrace them.

[trojandave]

By the way, I have been to Memorial Field in Gallipolis many times, and I have yet to see Portsmouth fans even come close to filling up the visitors side........and we have had some good football teams come to the French City. I would say the best turnout we have had was maybe 600........half full........and there was plenty of room for the band to sit.

[trojandave]

The point made about speed difference between SE Ohio and the rest of the state is right on.........and not scheduling outside of SE Ohio does not prepare a SE team to deal with that speed come playoff time.