Public vs. Private - one more time

[Bricklayer]

^^^^^^^^Yes it is. The parents of private school children are DOUBLE DIPPED! They pay for the public schools in the form of property taxes (which do not benefit privates) and then they pay for the privates in the form of tuition.

Much talk in recent years has produced no action concerning vouchers from the state for private school families without action being taken. Dont look for any change in the area of vouchers any more than you will see a change in excluding private schools from OHSAA championships by making them play for separate championships.

I keep hearing a lot of rumors about scholarship money appearing for private school athletes along with relaxing academic standards. But what you know (if you know) and what you can prove are two different things. And I have yet to see one private school that has a 1.0 min GPA to be eligible for sports.

Do you really think the parents of the player that played at North College Hill and Huntington got DOUBLE DIPPED?

Who cares. Do you really think O J Mayo's parents are worrying about being "Double Dipped"? Didn't North College Hill win the state championship the year after OJ left? I know they eliminated Wheelersburg with a buzzer beating 3.

[Bricklayer]

Webster was picked to win it before anyone knew about waginger. Plus we were winning tournament games by massive margins 30 and 40 plus. Waginger wasn't scoring 30 and 40. I just want to say we shouldn't caudil are kids and make it easier just to win state champs. That all people are doing. Handicaping our kids.

I will have to disagree with you , he was one of the best defensive players I ever saw play. Take him away and all teams had to do was stop your post player, not sure you could have got the ball up against the press without his ball handling. You didn't win all your games by 30 and 40. He was always up there in points too. I don't think people want it easier, they just want it level. You won it with a transfer and you didn't before he came. Say what you want but that is the bottom line. Trying to take credit away from one of the best players I have seen play isn't going to change things.

I know the Clay and South Webster game that year was nuts.

[jeepmadness]

Bricklayerbenjamintoddphotography that was the year before and you are right that game was crazy.

Hardwood Im not taking anything away from waginger that boy can play some ball, but we had Jordan lower who was actually a better ball handler than wag. You take away wag his points get compensated by other players but you couldn't have compensated for nicks production. He was just too dominate inside and out. State champs was a done deal before wag even got there.

[G.W.A.]

Webster would'nt have made it to the state without a recruit, and neither would have oakhill. But thats not the point here, Thats what we have to do to compete with the privates. I'am glad both of the southeastohio schools won.

[Watcher]

Not a topic people in southeastern Ohio have to worry about, no private schools. I guess Notre Dame and St. Joe but they are not a factor. Only time you would see a private would be regional finals, maybe?

[JohnKnight]

Eagles73 wrote

Everyone can recruit and it is perfectly legal to do so. If I want to approach a student athlete from another district and give them my best talk about how my home district can get them a quality education and whatever else about our athletics is perfectly fine. Now, if I offer them something such as compensation or benefits for transferring, there is the problem, but only for publics. Privates can offer up whatever financial aid package they want. Now is it ethical to chase after other student athletes, that is another debate! lol

Section 9. Recruiting
4-9-1 A student is considered a prospective athlete after enrolling in the seventh grade, or the
grade corresponding to the seventh grade for a student from a foreign country. Any attempt
to recruit a prospective student-athlete for athletic purposes shall be strictly prohibited.
4-9-2 For purposes of this Bylaw Section 9, the term “recruit” shall mean the use of influence
by any person connected or not connected with the school to secure the transfer of a
prospective student-athlete.
4-9-3 All member high schools are permitted to mass market their entire high school program
and all of its elements for the purpose of informing and recruiting students.
• Recruiting a select athletic group or individual, i.e. eighth grade team or individual
sports participants, is a violation

• Coaches initiating contact with prospective student-athletes, who are not presently
enrolled in the school’s educational program, or their parents, prior to written acceptance
notification (which cannot occur prior to January 2), is a violation.
• Note: For the purposes of this section of Bylaw 4, the description of “coaches” as
stated in Bylaws 6-1-1 and 6-1-2 shall be applicable.
4-9-4 Prior to enrollment, a student-athlete may visit a public or non-public school in contemplation
of transfer, as long as that contemplated transfer is consistent with Board of
Education or similar governing board policy formally adopted by that school district and
arrangements for the visit are made through the principal and/or school administrator designated
by the Board of Education or similar governing board.
4-9-5 All questions relating to enrollment, attendance or the athletic program shall be handled
through the school administration or the admissions office. High school coaches may
answer athletic questions from prospective student-athletes and/or their parents and
describe their programs only within the school in accordance with approved administrative
policies and procedures (i.e. via admissions offices).
4-9-6 Member schools shall not distribute athletic publications or advertise solely for athletics.
All athletic materials must be accompanied by general school information, prior to student
registration. Athletic camp brochures that advertise athletic camps that are available
to a general population are permitted.
4-9-7 Invitations and/or free admission to high school contests or invitations to athletic-related
recognition ceremonies/banquets, etc., are permitted provided that the invitation or
admission is extended to the entire group or team and is mutually agreed upon by the
administrations of both schools/organizations. Additional favors or inducements, such as
T-shirts or caps, cannot be given to prospective student-athletes or their parents.
4-9-8 Providing financial aid or scholarships to a student on the basis of athletic ability is
prohibited.
4-9-9 All member school coaches approved by the Board of Education or other governing board
and student-athletes, when invited, may speak at elementary/middle schools, as well as to
youth organizations, provided the talk focuses on educational values and coaching techniques
and is not used to recruit student-athletes.
4-9-10 Any violation of the recruiting prohibitions as set forth in this bylaw shall cause the
recruited student-athlete to be ineligible upon transfer. Furthermore, the school to which
the recruited student-athlete transfers or the school the recruiting attempts were intended
to benefit shall be subject to sanctions as set forth in Bylaw 11.

[toast]

"And that is exactly what is wrong about the way education is funded in this country. You arbitrarily pick out one segment of the population (private school families) and say it is their lawful duty to pay for something they choose not to use for whatever reasons apply, and then make ALL property owners share in the expense whether they benefit from it or not."

You obviously don't support the idea of public education or common good. Everyone does contribute to public education through a variety of different taxes. As I stated before I would like to see less reliance placed on property tax as a way to fund education and our current governor has us moving in that direction.

There is nothing unfair about parents who send their children to private schools paying for the education of public school children. They have made a "conscious" decision not to use public schools. No one is forcing them to send their children to private schools.

If you want to talk about unfair let's talk about the vast disparity in educational opportunity that has existed in this state for so long. The state's funding formula was declared unconstitutional numerous times and yet we had people in elected positions that said there was no problem. Talk about injustice!

[JohnKnight]

If you never use the police or fire dept, you still help pay for them. It is all about
PUBLIC service. If you choose to buy your own security system because you don't trust the police you still have to pay the taxes.

[boy of summer]

Toast-Great post. The current funding system of Ohio public schools in my opinion is and has been the single biggest problem in Ohio. For years, the issue was completely ignored by state government. Then the Supreme Court declared it unconstitutional. The legislature still ignored the problem and no one held them accountable. It has gotten somewhat better and I do believe that our current governor has attempted to address the problem unlike his predecessors.

The funding system also rears its ugly head in the private-public school debate regarding athletics. Again, private schools can choose who they take. They do not have to "teach down" to students, have much fewer discipline problems as a result of being able to "choose" their students, etc. In public schools, every child in your district must attend the public school until they are 18 years old. Often times, a large number of these kids fail the bulk or all of their classes as freshman and then repeat their freshman year one, two or three more times until they are 18 and then are kicked or drop out of school. The public schools are at the mercy of the school funding formula which gives them a certain amount of money for each student so they have to keep these kids in school that often have no desire to be there. The school is often forced to spend virtually 100% of their time dealing with the disciplinary issues that these students cause which robs valuable educational time from those students that want to learn. These students then drop out and often struggle the rest of their lives with poverty, inability to get jobs, etc. School superintendents are reluctant to allow these students permission to take the GED until their class graduates as they would lose funding to run their schools. It is a system that needs changed and needed changed decades ago. Athletically, these students count in the total number of kids for classification purposes when they really have no interest in being in school, do not participate in extracirricular activities, etc., which is not the case at private schools which again can completely control the quality and number of students they have in their student body.

I do not blame anyone for pursuing a private school education. It is just an option that is not availiable in the majority of the state, particularly in southeastern Ohio. I also admire the public school system, its teachers and administrators. They simply want to educate their students, but the current funding system often times is the public school system's worst enemy and they often have to unfortunately have to spend most of their day being parents, social workers, etc. instead of being teachers. Athletics do not hold a candle to the value of a child's education, but do not kid yourself that the current funding formula for Ohio's public schools also puts public schools at a huge disadvantage athletically versus the private schools.

[caglewis]

I have been hearing this same stuff for as long as I can remember. I'm mostly sick and tired of hearing it.
But somehow this thread has turned out mostly sane, rational, informative, and very interesting.
I am not in favor of a public/private separation in athletic competition. Whatever its flaws, I think Ohio's system of defining athletic competition rules and standards, and choosing state champions is among the best. Of course there are going to be schools and students who find ways to circumvent the rules, but the only way to end that is to end the competion altogether - and that would be a great loss.
So quit already with the impossible demands that all schools be exactly alike. That's never going to happen with respect to ANY given criteria well beyond just the public/private one - different rural/urban, socio-economic levels, appreciation of education/learning, employment opportunities in different commnities all contribute to the tax base funding, and the willingness/ability of parents to pay either more taxes or extra tuition for their children's school. Providing academic education is the legal requirement for schools - non-academic extras like athletics, music, and arts are going to be the first things reduced or cut in financially strapped districts.

[TribeManiac10]

My beloved Peebles Indians would probably have had a state championship banner of our own if we had not had to go up against private Cols. Wehrle in the 83-84(D-4) regional championship. They had like 4 or 5 players who would later sign to play ball at division 1 colleges(2 of which signed with Ohio State). Short of Northland I dont know any public school in Ohio that could keep up with those numbers.

[boy of summer]

gahs4ever

Good post. I agree with a lot of what you said. School funding is a huge issue and the major reason school levies get voted down is that it is so dependent on property taxes.

With that being said, when school districts in our area get a bunch of transfers who more often than not only "rent" homes in the new school district or transfer "custody" of their child to someone else and these kids take the places of local kids (who often have large voting families who have resided in the community for years) who have been involved since kindergarten in the basketball, football or baseball programs, what happens the next time the school levy comes up for a vote in the community? Where do the votes to pass it come from-the kid's family who never owned property in the community to begin with and/or just rented and who then moves back to his/her old community with his family when their career at their new school ends? Do the large voting families of the displaced kids do the right thing and vote for the levy and the kids or do they hold a grudge and defeat it? These are issues seldom discussed with kids transfering at will now a days. Winning is great but does winning this way come with a price that the future students in the district will pay for later? Again, these are issues not faced by private schools.

[JohnKnight]

Two totally different discussions. Funding has nothing to do with the sports debate.

Here is the rule, too bad it is RARELY enforced!!!!!!!!

4-9-10 Any violation of the recruiting prohibitions as set forth in this bylaw shall cause the
recruited student-athlete to be ineligible upon transfer. Furthermore, the school to which
the recruited student-athlete transfers or the school the recruiting attempts were intended
to benefit shall be subject to sanctions as set forth in Bylaw 11.

[JohnKnight]

There was Private schools dominating the State Finals, way before there were funding issues.

[boy of summer]

gahs4ever:

I 100% agree with you that school funding has everything to do with the debate. Pay for play is beginning to devastate some of poorer school districts in Ohio. When it costs rural school districts more to put their students at the front doors of their schools than any other school districts in Ohio, it leaves little monies for certain academic and athletic programs often forcing pay for play. Other states have enacted equitable school funding for their public school students. Ohio is way, way behind the curve on this and has really dropped the ball in this regard and that is a travesty for our students, future and state. Equitable School funding is the first place to put the "public" schools on equal footing most importantly academically then athletically, which is a point you eloquently make as not all public schools are equal-for example the surburban Columbus schools versus southeast ohio schools.

Once it occurs, then a legitimate effort can be made to hopefully level the athletic playing field between the private and public schools although debate such as is going on through the Wayne County Superintendents needs to occur with all school districts in Ohio making it a priority to answer their survey.

[JohnKnight]

Some public schools recruit, too!!!

[JohnKnight]

You realize Ginn Academy is the reason Glenville is so good, right?

http://highschoolsports.cleveland.com/n ... n-academy/


Demetrius Craig left Nordonia on April 9, Athletic Director Rob Eckenrode said. Ginn Academy, founded by Glenville coach Ted Ginn Sr., is an all-boys alternative school and part of the Cleveland public school district. The school does not have athletics. In order for Demetrius Craig to attend Ginn Academy and play at Glenville he must live in the Glenville district and enroll at Ginn, said Leonard Jackson, the Cleveland district commissioner for athletics.


http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/10 ... t_for.html

[JohnKnight]

http://www.oakcrestfarms.com/BSM.html

[JohnKnight]

Separate tournaments doesn't have to be radical. Just have an Open Set of divisions and a Closed set. Keep it 6 divisions but three includes privates, magnet and unlimited open enrollment schools. three that include the schools that do not have that advantage. Some schools only allow open enrollment of districts that are adjacent.

http://education.ohio.gov/GD/Templates/ ... tent=77268