Ironton 69 Peebles 68 in 2OT

[shljunkie]

While we're on the topics, I wonder how a team can be awarded a time out...twice I believe, when the ball is laying on the floor....with no one having possession?

[Amen Corner]

On the Bock/Charge call....This my opinion on what happened... Both officials made the call that they thought was correct and when they got together they could not agree on one call so they called a double foul....I thought the official underneath had the best angle and the correct call which was a charge.

[Amen Corner]

Great game by both teams!!!!!!

Ironton, bring that same defensive pressure wed...

[mhs95_06]

What a game, and how about the ironton student section.

You guys and gals were great! Loved the "Lebron Dust" at the beginning of the game. That was classic.

I can attest that the substance was baby powder. That was obvious from the odor when the cloud floated over the section where I was. I was concerned with the safety of the players as you'd think that would be very slippery if it settled onto the court. I think that is a perfect example of a "crowd control" issue for which their concern keeps people from using the bleachers on the floor.

[FeetballRef]

Can someone explain the block/charge call. If it was a charge, then why did the points count? If it was a block and the shot counted then why wasn't it and one? Could it have been an ego call between two officials?

Another question. Do the officials confer ahead of time and agree not to call the game close? Touch fouls out front and hammertime inside without any calls. Ironton had shots under the basket at the end of regulation, at the end of the first OT and with about 20 seconds to go in 2nd OT and they were all "blocked shots?"

Yes that one puzzled me. I would have thought that if they couldn't agree, a double fou8l would be called and there be no points allowed since they don't count of a player control foul, and then possession should be awarded by the arrow. You never see anymore a basket counted on a offensive foul anymore. 30years ago it was very common for there to be a call for charging and the basket counted which was like a bailout call go give each team something. Then all of a sudden they changed the way they call it and always take away the basket. I think the proper way to call it is if the ball is completely out of the shooters hand before any contact occurs, then the basket should count. that is a very difficult thing to judge in addition to the difficulty of the block/charge call. Video replay would be very helpful there, but since it isn't an option they must have decided to just blankently take all baskets away! But the call last night was very puzzling. Would anyone who knows the exact rules on this like to comment if they were followed properly to allow a basket on an offensive foul? Do the rules state that there can be no basket awarded on a player control foul(ref puts his hand on the back of his head), or is that just an unwritten way they always call it now?

BASKETBALL OFFICIATING CASE BOOK 4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball. Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the A1 returns one foot to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is (a) successful, or (b) not successful.

RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul.
The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try. In (a), the goal is scored; play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. In (b), the point of interruption is a try in flight; therefore the alternating-possession procedure is used.

[mhs95_06]

On the Bock/Charge call....This my opinion on what happened... Both officials made the call that they thought was correct and when they got together they could not agree on one call so they called a double foul....I thought the official underneath had the best angle and the correct call which was a charge.

I agree that the charge was the best call, Did you see which ref called theirs first? From where I sat my eyes went to the one who called the block. Was the charge caller intimating his call at the same time, or did he come forward after he couldn't stomach such a critical call that he thought was in error? Usually don't the refs, once they blow the whistle(s) look at each other and nod, or whatever communication they use, to be sure they are on the same page before they intimate the call?

Is there any written rule justification for allowing the basket?

[TigersGameDayFan]

Anyone have highlights of the game or a video of Malcolms last second game winner?

as for the Ironton Students...they were awesome as usual...they didnt say anything disrespectful..

and if you wanna bash anyone how bout the Peebles fan who flipped the Ironton students off...very classy from a grown woman...

[mhs95_06]

Can someone explain the block/charge call. If it was a charge, then why did the points count? If it was a block and the shot counted then why wasn't it and one? Could it have been an ego call between two officials?

Another question. Do the officials confer ahead of time and agree not to call the game close? Touch fouls out front and hammertime inside without any calls. Ironton had shots under the basket at the end of regulation, at the end of the first OT and with about 20 seconds to go in 2nd OT and they were all "blocked shots?"

Yes that one puzzled me. I would have thought that if they couldn't agree, a double fou8l would be called and there be no points allowed since they don't count of a player control foul, and then possession should be awarded by the arrow. You never see anymore a basket counted on a offensive foul anymore. 30years ago it was very common for there to be a call for charging and the basket counted which was like a bailout call go give each team something. Then all of a sudden they changed the way they call it and always take away the basket. I think the proper way to call it is if the ball is completely out of the shooters hand before any contact occurs, then the basket should count. that is a very difficult thing to judge in addition to the difficulty of the block/charge call. Video replay would be very helpful there, but since it isn't an option they must have decided to just blankently take all baskets away! But the call last night was very puzzling. Would anyone who knows the exact rules on this like to comment if they were followed properly to allow a basket on an offensive foul? Do the rules state that there can be no basket awarded on a player control foul(ref puts his hand on the back of his head), or is that just an unwritten way they always call it now?

BASKETBALL OFFICIATING CASE BOOK 4.19.8 SITUATION C: A1 drives for a try and jumps and releases the ball. Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the A1 returns one foot to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1. The try is (a) successful, or (b) not successful.

RULING: Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul.
The double foul does not cause the ball to become dead on the try. In (a), the goal is scored; play is resumed at the point of interruption, which is a throw-in for Team B from anywhere along the end line. In (b), the point of interruption is a try in flight; therefore the alternating-possession procedure is used.

Very good info! Is this the same definition that is to be used on whether to count the basket on a charging foul, whether a foot has touched the floor before contact? If so, is that what was changed years ago to make them almost never count the basket, the changing of the judgement point from when it left the hand, to when the first foot touched the floor?

Also, if the ref puts his hand behind his head(which was done last night), isn't that the signal for a player control foul, which is a different than the situation described in the example above when it is not deemed a player control foul?

[TIGERS90]

Hat's off to both teams...the kids played one heck of a game and peeble's shouldn't hold their heads down at all...great team..great effort..but someone has to lose...

Ironton...what a great job...don't know how many times I thought the game was over and that we had already won...that somehow they kept coming back...but Malcom finally put it away at the end...great game...now let's continue this all the way to the state championship...one game at a time...Go tigers..

[FeetballRef]

Very good info! Is this the same definition that is to be used on whether to count the basket on a charging foul, whether a foot has touched the floor before contact? If so, is that what was changed years ago to make them almost never count the basket, the changing of the judgement point from when it left the hand, to when the first foot touched the floor?

Also, if the ref puts his hand behind his head(which was done last night), isn't that the signal for a player control foul, which is a different than the situation described in the example above when it is not deemed a player control foul?

I would guess that the 2 officials didn't know they had this situation until they got together to discuss what happened. The signals that are shown at the time of the whistles are called "preliminary" signals and will sometimes change after a conference. The signals that are shown to the scorer's table are the one's that count...

The official/unofficial term that is used for this situation is a BLARGE (block/charge). If you GOOGLE the term, there are some very interesting descriptions of it's definition especially on the Urban Dictionary.

[mhs95_06]

The one ref, after the conference went over to the table and gave the hand behind the head sign! I didn't see it when the play happened. Like I say I was looking at the other official when the play happened.

[mhs95_06]

I thought that Ironton and Peebles had the best two of the total 12 D3 teams that came to the Convo. Too bad that they both couldn't have gotten district championships.

[85inside]

As someone who has been very outspoken about the lack of school spirit shown by our student section in past years, let me say you ironton students did a great job! I surely hope that the Peebles folks werent calling our kids disrectful, when countless people told me that the Peebles ADULTS were disrespectful.
Congratulations coach Lafon, your staff and most of all your kids! What a great time to be a Fighting Tiger!

[sprinter14]

Absolutely the best game I have ever seen in my 35 years. I would like to have a DVD copy of that game. The questionable double foul was clearly a charge. When the player drove, I said to myself, "set your feet" and watched intently ONLY at the lower half of the Ironton player. Honestly, I have seen charges called when players were FAR less set. That was a CHARGE no doubt.

However, what impressed me the most, was #44 Fletcher of Ironton after the final buzzer. Malcolm's game winner went down, the Ironton kids went crazy and the Peebles kids fell to the floor in heartbreak. Perhaps because he was a freshman and hadn't been in the situation much, but Fletcher stood near mid court, looked around not knowing what to do. Instead of mobbing his teammates, Fletcher stepped over politely and shook hands with the Peebles coaches and consoled the Peebles players as he congratulated them on a fine season.

Kinda funny I thought. Was the freshman the most composed player on the floor? Or did he not realized the magnitude of the situation?? My first thought was........classy kid from a classy family!

Kinda made me want a #44 Ironton jersey!

[rachelcreek]

Good call, sprinter14. Probably a combination of both: unsure
of what to do as a freshman and polite treatment of vanquished
opponent, a classy act by a young man who will no doubt be
a positive contributor to Ironton success in future contests.

Great game. As for the other comments about conduct at
the game, I have always maintained that adults can mess
up a kid's game real quick. Don't know about Peebles fans,
but some of the stuff being verbally tossed at the game
officials from some fans was lacking in class and the spirit
of sportsmanship. Not necessarily the Ironton student
section.

[FANOSPORTS]

Good call, sprinter14. Probably a combination of both: unsure
of what to do as a freshman and polite treatment of vanquished
opponent, a classy act by a young man who will no doubt be
a positive contributor to Ironton success in future contests.

Great game. As for the other comments about conduct at
the game, I have always maintained that adults can mess
up a kid's game real quick. Don't know about Peebles fans,
but some of the stuff being verbally tossed at the game
officials from some fans was lacking in class and the spirit
of sportsmanship. Not necessarily the Ironton student
section.

It always cracks me up, some of these games do get out of hand and most of the time it's "males" that do the yelling, screaming and fingerpointing at the refs whether it be right or wrong but there were more than a few women in the Peebles crowd last night, some standing and some sitting (don't know if any of them knew what the call even was or the rules, i doubt it) but they were just yelling and pumping their fists at the refs like a man normally would. I just thought it was comical but I guess when the men stand up with valid points a lot of times, the women from Peebles will not back down but rise in unison to help their men in the bleachers and sons on the floor !!!!!

[shljunkie]

what an ignorent post fanosports. Maybe you didn't notice but 3/4 of that convo was packed with Peebles fans.....a community that truly gets behind their team and supports them. I for one....was extremely proud of our crowd. I won't even justify your women comment with a response....I'll let your ignorence speak for itself.

[blockcharge]

Just to clarify a couple of items. Player control and charge are 2 different things.
(1) A player in control of the basketball can commit a charge. A player who isn't in control can also commit a charge.
(2) Feet do not have to be set by the defense in every situation for an offensive foul to be called. Everyone is entitled to their position on the floor, if a player is airborne you cannot take away his landing spot unless u were there before he left the floor.
(3) No basket can be scored by an airborne shooter who commits an offensive foul. When the shooter returns to the floor he is no longer airborne.
(4) Officials do have a pre-game conference. I have never been a part of a confernce where it was said and agreed upon that "we're goin let em play tonight." You call your game (use your judgement) to decide foul or no foul.
(5) Sometimes we don't hear our partners whistle. ( even with no bleachers pulled out at the convo).
(6) Primary coverage areas sometimes overlap. 99.9% of the time our vantage point is better than the fans.

[blockcharge]

(7) We absolutely hate the BLARGE.

[mhs95_06]

So blockcharge, you are saying on the play in question, that it was ruled by the two officials involved that the shooter had released the ball, and at least one foot had come back to the floor before the contact happened that resulted in a double foul being called. That is what it would have to be to count the basket and call a non player control charge that results is a score. And in spite of this ruling, and after the conference between refs, the ref who called the non player control charge went to the table and signaled a player control foul. Is that correct?

My opinion is that the refs erred in judging the play in two ways, one that it was a block, and two that a foot was down before contact. And another error was made after the conference in the signal that was given. So I thjink justice was served by the trey going down at the end of the 2nd OT to give the team that was wronged by this play their due reward!