OHSAA asked to enter Public - Private Debate

[hawkeyepierce]

2010 OHSAA State Tournament Champions

Public Schools 3 Jackson-Massilon, Dayton Dunbar, Dayton Jefferson-Township

Are they really? These three schools have been notorious for bringing in the appropriate player across the city lines. If you are a basketball player living in the city of Dayton you either go to Dunbar or Jefferson. Besides, Jefferson had to forfeit five games this year for using an ineligible player, which leads to air of impropriety. The things that make the common fan scratch his head, while everyone else looks the other way.

Furthermore, selective enrollment schools only represent 22% of the total number of schools. However, if you look back at the football championships selective enrollment schools had won almost 50% of the titles earned. Anyone who says that the selective enrollment schools do not have an unfair advantage has their head in the sand or they are lying (Tom Seggerson, by the way congratulations on your championship). This is embarrassing for the OHSAA, but they do not care. There is a reason, since OHSAA inception in the early 70's it was ran by devout Catholic in Clair Marscaro (sp?) and now his successor is a man of the same religious affiliation Dr. Dan Ross, so do not expect any changes anytime soon.

Suggested reading: Shooting Stars by LeBron James.

[hawkeyepierce]

Whoops! Before someone calls me a racist homophobe who shows up to whale meat eating contest in my gas guzzling SUV, I am catholic, but more importantly in this regard, I am a fair-minded individual.

[bengalfan76]

If you use the multiplier suggested ND and Ironton St Joe would still be in the small school division.
Bet any of the football or Basketball champs would be at least one division higher. City Magnet schools should also be affected by this multiplier. Afrocentric should not be in the small school division.

[earp]

Umm judging from what I saw Massillon Jackson do to Moeller last night this argument is dead!Can you say BUZZSAW! darn!

[eagles73Taylor]

1 game does not dispell the overall disparity of the problem! lol

[earp]

I am not really seeing the problem at all!I mean I know one year or one game isnt going to establish or unestablish years of dominance!But have the private schools really been that dominate??

[tossithigh]

Bottom line....I dont see a separation of public and private school champions, but if it were to occur, the public school champions would be a paper champion compared to the private and the trophy should be made of plastic. If you dont beat the best, then youre not the best IMO.

gahs4ever,

You're on a roll!

[hawkeyepierce]

Bottom line....I dont see a separation of public and private school champions, but if it were to occur, the public school champions would be a paper champion compared to the private and the trophy should be made of plastic. If you dont beat the best, then youre not the best IMO.

We are NOT talking about levels of competition, we are discussing a level of fairness. The point is there are inherent differences in the establishment of eligibility of the student/athlete and who may or may not have the resources or pool to pull from. For example, if Vinton County was able to take three, four, or five of best players of area teams, is not plausible that Vinton County could compete at the regional level? Most certainly. This point as already been established; the recent state champions from the Southeast District were South Webster, Chillicothe, and Oak Hill have benefited from open enrollment or "transfers." Well, selective enrollment schools do this year in and year out.

I am not really seeing the problem at all!I mean I know one year or one game isnt going to establish or unestablish years of dominance!But have the private schools really been that dominate??

Yes. Go back to 1970 or 1971 when the OHSAA began and you will see the disparaging differences in state championships won. Selective enrollment schools have won more than their share of championships, remember they only represent 22% of the total number of schools. But yet, they have won more than 50% of championships and this is not counting the selective enrollment schools that participated in the regionals and lost in the same years as their contemporaries won championships. For example, this year in DI there were four (five if you Columbus Northland or six if you count Gahanna with their influx of open enrollment) selective enrollment schools in the elite eight, that is 50%, twice the amount that should be represented. Unequivocally, there is an advantage, plain and simple, and like I said before if you do not see it you have your head in the sand or you are just lying.

[bman]

The D2 Athens Regional is currently one SE District team, two East District teams and one Central District team. I'd also point out that when Chillicothe and LE advanced to state, it was two SE and two East, which made it a bit easier. I still think both of those teams advance to state because they had a lot of talent.

It's hard traditionally for our teams to go against the big boys of Columbus.

[bman]

GAHS, Zanesville came out in 2010.

[hawkeyepierce]

Hawkeye: Ok so in the SEOAL the long established members have a 2.0 GPA requirement for eiligibility purposes while some schools in the immediate area only have a 1.0. In fact we have lost kids to 1.0 schools on occasion.

The greatest disparity I see in terms of playing fields comes with the MANY schools from metro areas who have so much of an advantage in terms of facilities, year round programs, and just the sheer competition that comes when you have large numbers in a compressed area that it is a wonder the SE district can compete at all at any level.

I have posted in the past that the DII regional is made up of two SE district, one Eastern district, and one Central district schools. The Central district sends two teams to regional competition; one to Dayton and the other to Athens. And it is common knowledge and frequently reported that coaches in the central district lobby to get in the bracket that goes to Athens for good reason.

Here is the list of DII teams sent to the Final Four out of the Athens regional the last ten years:

2010- Cols DeSales
2009- Logan Elm
2008- Chillicothe
2007- Cols DeSales
2006- Cols DeSales
2005- Cols Linden McKinley
2004- Dover
2003- Cols Beechcroft
2002- Cols Beechcroft
2001- Cols East

See a trend there? A kid wants to transfer in Columbus, it might involve a drive on the outer belt of 20 min or so. As spread out as the SE district is, we actually have fewer athletes in a larger area.

That to me is the biggest disparity.

And Im not lying!

You are totally correct, it is easier for a kid to transfer within the outerbelt and that is my point. The only schools that have benefited the most of open enrollment are city schools, I alluded to that earlier. I am willing to bet the last ten years of basketball champions have benefited greatly from either selective or open enrollment and those numbers would be astonishing! My guess 70% or greater. On another point, a school like Vinton County who almost never get transfers will someday make a run at the regionals but will have ultimately face a team that is not from a true community school. Vinton County would need a little luck, Norman Dale, Jimmy Chitwood, and the community of Milan to ever win a state championship under this current trend.

Over the last eleven years, since 2000, there have been 30 selective enrollment schools play for state championships, that represent 34%. Remember selective enrollment schools are only 22% of the schools population. Now consider the teams that we know that benefited from "open enrollment," North College Hill three times, Dayton Dunbar three times, Columbus Northland, South Webster, Chillicothe, Oak Hill, have all won championships, which represents 46%. Now consider those that have won, 44 titles up for grabs, so 24 titles won by either selective enrollment or benefited from open enrollment (that we know of, I am not familiar with the pedigree of Upper Sandusky or Surgarcreek Garaway and the like) represents 55%. Again I think my point is clear, there are advantages and to say otherwise, well, you know.

Another example of the public vs. private debate; I believe it was three seasons ago, Youngstown Mooney was a DIV football powerhouse. At the time they had nine DI college football prospects on their roster. There is NO WAY IN HELL that teams of comparable size: Westfall, Wellston, Gallia Academy, and New Lexington could ever bear and raise NINE DI football prospects. I met a gentleman about that same time who graduated from Mooney and went on to play at Maryland. He told me emphatically; they know it and they don't care, (he said that there is an air football arrogance in NE Ohio), they would even reach out to players on the Pennsylvania side. I said that was inherently unfair, to my surprise, agreed but went onto say that it is the benefits of the current system and suggested our community should start our own charter school. Of course he was being glib, but the point was it happens. And people want to act like it doesn't happen or to be the best you must beat the best, it all sounds good. However, we must not lose sight of fairness. I am sure that the people in Chesapeake are OK with the loss at the hands of an selective enrollment school, a school that draw outside it area, a school that give a tuition scholarship to under-privileged athletic kids. (If LeBron James had been 5'8" instead of 6'8" he never would have went ASVSM and they would have never played four championship games and won three). There is a lot of public schools across this state that has never been to St. John Arena or the Schott. It is time to stop acting like it does not happen and acknowledge for what it really is, an uneven playing field; public schools running up hill and selective enrollment schools are cruising downhill.

[1987chieftains]

yep!

[Steely Dan]

Hawkeye - I believe that you have just provided tangible evidence that you are the smartest man on the internet, when it comes to HS sports. And you know that I am being sincere with that comment, nothing facetious!!!!

[my2cents]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the girls dominating team of Regina State, I mean Regina High School is a perfect example of recruitment of players to a private school. I had heard rumours last year that their State Championship team had a girl on it that actually lived in Canada. Never did bother to find out if it was true, but now must wonder after finding this article on the web from the Cleveland Plain Dealer. Tell me how to schools like Oak Hill, who lost do Regina last year, compete against this?

Regina's girls basketball team disqualified from tournament for using ineligible player
Bob Fortuna, The Plain Dealer, March 11, 2010 8:46 p.m.

South Euclid, Ohio - Regina's final girls basketball season came to an abrupt end Thursday when the Ohio High School Athletic Association ruled the Royals used an ineligible player in a sectional tournament game last month.

The all-girls parochial school in South Euclid, which is closing in June because of financial difficulties, was a favorite to win what would have been the program's seventh Division III state championship next week. School administrators said they would not appeal the ruling.

Junior Therany Dunnigan learned of the news through a phone call from a teammate while she was at the doctor's office.

"I heard there was an announcement at the school that basically said we were eliminated from the tournament and everyone was crying," said Dunnigan. "There's really nothing we can do about it now, except move on. I'll probably go somewhere tonight [Thursday] and work out so I can keep my mind off of it."

The night before the ruling, the Royals, ranked second in the state and by The Plain Dealer, defeated Elyria Catholic, 68-45, in a regional semifinal. Under OHSAA rules, Elyria Catholic takes Regina's place in the tournament as the Royals' most recent defeated opponent and will play Smithville in Saturday's final with the winner advancing to the state final four.

Regina was found in violation of a bylaw in section 8, which covers students from foreign countries, as well as bylaw 3-1-1 for a lack of monitoring the school's compliance with OHSAA bylaws and sports regulations.
"School administrations have monitoring responsibilities," said OHSAA Commissioner Dan Ross. "Those responsibilities weren't done in the case of Regina."

After receiving an anonymous mailing Wednesday about concerns with a player's eligibility, along with other potential violations, OHSAA administrators conducted a review and questioned Regina administrators Thursday in a conference call.

The OHSAA concluded the player, who they would not name, was in violation of bylaw 4-8-1. Students from countries and provinces outside the United States are ineligible unless they meet one of four exceptions, all of which require approval from the OHSAA commissioner's office.
"All the procedures to make the student-athlete eligible in the state of Ohio weren't done, along with some other residency issues," said Ross, who wouldn't elaborate.

Any victories involving the ineligible player have to be forfeited. Because the player also appeared in the postseason during a Feb. 27 sectional final win over Beachwood, the Royals were disqualified from the statewide tournament.

Regina coach Pat Diulus and Principal Sr. Margaret Gorman did not return phone calls. Gorman released the following statement through the OHSAA:

"While we are disappointed for our student-athletes and the Regina community, we have accepted the OHSAA's ruling. The Commissioner and his staff have conducted a fair and proper investigation, and have provided us with evidence to support their ruling."

This is the second consecutive year Regina has been investigated by the OHSAA during the playoffs. Last year, the OHSAA cleared the Royals of an accusation that one of their players participated in a recreation-league game.

Diulus has led teams to an Ohio-best nine state championships over a 25-year career, including three titles from his 13 seasons at Trinity. He is also facing a court charge in Cuyahoga County for running charitable bingo games without a proper license. The case is scheduled to be presented to a county grand jury to determine if charges are warranted.

Regina is the third area school to be penalized this school year for violating OHSAA rules.

Cleveland Heights had to forfeit three football games after the OHSAA determined the Tigers used an ineligible player. Those forfeits cost Cleveland Heights a spot in the Division I playoffs. In December, Hathaway Brown had to forfeit its Division II girls soccer state championship after it was discovered an ineligible player participated.

[1987chieftains]

oooop! now these are all lies!!!! we all know that privates school all play on the up and up. lol!!!! good! glad to see someone got caught.
the saddest thing of all is the the players now have nothing to show for there hard work.... maybe and i've said this before, the parents should shoulder some of the blame.. there is no way in the world not 1 parent knew what was going on.

[trojandave]

I am in favor of keeping public and private schools together........there are already enough divisions as it is.........and my school, Portsmouth High School, has historically fared well against private schools in various sports.........PHS for many, many years did not have an influx of transfers and relied on kids who grew up in the city of Portsmouth.....even today we hardly get anyone from outside of Portsmouth.....open enrollment is why we are D3 right now.......it has hurt our enrollment more than helped it........the kids that we have had simply worked hard at what they loved to do and the results showed........we didn't win every game vs. the private schools, but we certainly won our share.

Although this is slightly off topic, Shelby Valley won the 2010 Sweet 16 state championship in Kentucky........they were the second smallest school in the tournament, and they beat Ballard 73-61 in the title game.......Ballard is a traditional powerhouse (champion in 1977, 1988, 1999) that has 3 1/2 times the enrollment of Shelby Valley.

Open enrollment, transfers, and whatever else happens is a big part of high school athletics now........the OHSAA has rules and guidelines in place in regards to elements......it's never going to be a perfect system no matter what.

Small schools can beat big schools.......and public schools can beat private schools!!

I wonder if public schools were winning most of the championships how many of you would be on here complaining about it?

[trojandave]

I compiled this info from the 2010 OHSAA State Tournament Program:

Since the year 2000:

Number of private schools appearing in the state championship game, all divisions: 28
Number of public schools appearing in the state championship game, all divisions: 60

Number of private schools winning the state championship, all divisions: 14
Number of public schools winning the state championship, all divisions: 30

Breakdown by divisions:

D1: Private schools in championship game: 10 Public schools: 12
Private schools winning championship: 4 Public schools: 7

D2: Private schools in championship game: 6 Public schools: 16
Private schools winning championship: 4 Public schools: 7

D3: Private schools in championship game: 6 Public schools: 16
Private schools winning championship: 4 Public schools: 7

D4: Private schools in championship game: 6 Public schools: 16
Private schools winning championship: 2 Public schools: 9

The idea that private schools have an "advantage" of some sort over public schools is not demonstrated at the state tournament level.........public schools hold a significant margin over private schools in state appearances and state championship......for all 4 divisions.

[Out of Bounds]

Trojan Dave, as 99.9% of the time I agree with you and enjoy your post, I think you are missing one point here. You are getting hung up on the word "Private vs Public". Yes Public schools did win those championships, but the point Hawkeye is making is advantages and disadvantages of open enrollment. Use Dayton, you have Jefferson or Dunbar....take your pick and lets make a run to the regionals. They are both deemed Public schools but have an advantage.

[butcherman108]

I compiled this info from the 2010 OHSAA State Tournament Program:

Since the year 2000:

Number of private schools appearing in the state championship game, all divisions: 28
Number of public schools appearing in the state championship game, all divisions: 60

Number of private schools winning the state championship, all divisions: 14
Number of public schools winning the state championship, all divisions: 30

Breakdown by divisions:

D1: Private schools in championship game: 10 Public schools: 12
Private schools winning championship: 4 Public schools: 7

D2: Private schools in championship game: 6 Public schools: 16
Private schools winning championship: 4 Public schools: 7

D3: Private schools in championship game: 6 Public schools: 16
Private schools winning championship: 4 Public schools: 7

D4: Private schools in championship game: 6 Public schools: 16
Private schools winning championship: 2 Public schools: 9

The idea that private schools have an "advantage" of some sort over public schools is not demonstrated at the state tournament level.........public schools hold a significant margin over private schools in state appearances and state championship......for all 4 divisions.

That looks great ,but you need to take the total number of private schools and what percentage of titles they won,verus the percentage public schools won.

[hawkeyepierce]

Hawkeye - I believe that you have just provided tangible evidence that you are the smartest man on the internet, when it comes to HS sports. And you know that I am being sincere with that comment, nothing facetious!!!!

I know, right? Nobody wants to listen to me except when it only benefits them. Watch this.

I compiled this info from the 2010 OHSAA State Tournament Program:

Since the year 2000:

Number of private schools appearing in the state championship game, all divisions: 28
Number of public schools appearing in the state championship game, all divisions: 60

Number of private schools winning the state championship, all divisions: 14
Number of public schools winning the state championship, all divisions: 30

Breakdown by divisions:

D1: Private schools in championship game: 10 Public schools: 12
Private schools winning championship: 4 Public schools: 7

D2: Private schools in championship game: 6 Public schools: 16
Private schools winning championship: 4 Public schools: 7

D3: Private schools in championship game: 6 Public schools: 16
Private schools winning championship: 4 Public schools: 7

D4: Private schools in championship game: 6 Public schools: 16
Private schools winning championship: 2 Public schools: 9

The idea that private schools have an "advantage" of some sort over public schools is not demonstrated at the state tournament level.........public schools hold a significant margin over private schools in state appearances and state championship......for all 4 divisions.

Oh but it does, my friend. Your research proves my point. While it is true that public schools hold the numerically higher quantity of championships than private; however, the private schools represent 22% of the total schools population. Therefore, a private should only represent 25% or less in the quantity of championships but they do not.

Lets take your information:

Number of private schools appearing in the state championship game, all divisions: 28
Number of public schools appearing in the state championship game, all divisions: 60

That is 32% - 10% percent higher than the population.

Number of private schools winning the state championship, all divisions: 14
Number of public schools winning the state championship, all divisions: 30


That is 32% - 10% percent higher than the population.

D1: Private schools in championship game: 10 Public schools: 12
Private schools winning championship: 4 Public schools: 7

In the game - 45% - 23% percent higher than the population
Winning the championship - 36% - 14% percent higher than the population

D2: Private schools in championship game: 6 Public schools: 16
Private schools winning championship: 4 Public schools: 7


In the game - 27% - 5% percent higher than the population
Winning the championship - 36% - 14% percent higher than the population

D3: Private schools in championship game: 6 Public schools: 16
Private schools winning championship: 4 Public schools: 7

In the game - 27% - 5% percent higher than the population
Winning the championship - 36% - 14% percent higher than the population

D4: Private schools in championship game: 6 Public schools: 16
Private schools winning championship: 2 Public schools: 9

In the game - 27% - 5% percent higher than the population
Winning the championship - 18% - 4% less than the population.

It is only here in D4 we see the number of championships below the reported population. However, if you are talking about basketball then I submit to you, the 2006 and 2009 champions in D4 benefited greatly from open enrollment. If you were to take into count of open enrollment and treat it as the same as selective enrollment, then the percentages are much, much, greater. Just with these two schools we know of, the percentage is 36%.

Now that brings me to my next point; it is because of open enrollment that we see these numbers trending downward. If you were to look at another ten year block such as 1976-1985, or 1980-1989, these percentage would be greater. And you constantly see names like Wehrle, Delphos St. John, Akron St. Vincent St. Mary, Cleveland Cathedral Latin, Toledo DeSales, Lorain Catholic, and so on. Open enrollment has done what it was meant to do and somewhat level the playing field. However, there are abuses in open enrollment and the integrity of it has been questioned several times, until that is resolve you are going to see the same names at the state tournaments. There are hundreds of schools that have not been to the Schott or St. John's Arena because before their season even starts they are handicap by who is in their sectional, district, or regional, someone who has benefited from open enrollment or are a selective enrollment school.