MSL Expansion = Logan and Chilly???

[moonshine]

Here is my take; Logan is a charter member of the oldest continuous athletic league in the state of Ohio. The SEOAL is full of tradition and is a very competitive league in most sports! Over the years personal relationships and many friends have been developed. Yes our league is spread out over most of southeast Ohio, which I believe is one of the concerns along with the stability of the members of the SEOAL. Yes Logan has had a very good run over the last few years in football and in some of the other sports and we are very proud of our program, but we will be coming back to the pack soon, but do not be fooled Logan sports teams will always compete for league championships! Unless the SEOAL looks to expand, which there has been little or no dicussion about, I am very concerned that the SEOAL will soon disband. As for the MSL, I believe this would be a solution to the travel problem and the competition is catching up very quickly with the SEOAL and will soon pass our league, especially if both Logan and Chillicothe are invited and accept .I for one will miss the good old SEOAL, but looking down ten years down the road with our development of Hocking County as a bedroom community of the Columbus area, IT IS A NO BRAINER! I fully endorse a possible move to the MSL. Time to move on!

[Paladin]

Can't get it all in the Daily as I don't subscribe, but the point raised was nothing will happen till next Spring, if then.

Cute, bman. Point to a one time game and extrapolate a whole league comparasion. However should any of the MSL teams venture into the SEOAL as a member & have to play all you might sing a different tune. I been around a long time and most of the MSL would NEVER venture into the SEOAL because over time ,match -ups were never very successful. Ditto the SouthCentral Ohio League who used to get regular butt kickings from the SEOAL. I was involved in several 50-0 games. Traditionally , the SEOAL were considered "big city" teams by MSL teams who were , at best, "cow pasture" teams who played no one. Now that some growth by the MSL student populations and a fall in populations in many SEOL towns have evened out, you may think that the "competitive level" has also. Step right up -- schedule some games. Live some reality. Again, check Joe Eitel and over many years. The MSL teams do not fare well in rankings or success. A quick look from this past year show many who didn't beat anyone with a winning record and wins only against losing teams. The MSL is what it is -- a weak sister with an occasional good team ( usually Amanda) and primarily small division teams.

[bman]

^ It's cute because you slammed Logan Elm as being a cow pasture school and they have beaten one of the mighty SEOAL schools in the playoffs you are touting.

You overvalue the strength of your league. 30 years ago, your point probably does carry some water when these southeast Ohio cities were larger and the MSL schools smaller. But several of these towns are empty shells compared to their glory days, the MSL schools are growing and the competition has been getting closer during the playoffs in the last decade. The SEOAL does hold the edge but all the games but one and maybe two, that being an MSL win, have been very competitive so we see the gap narrowing to being pretty close.

[Paladin]

bman, I recall you being from Circleville. I played & coached at Logan and Roundtown was an annual victim , either by game or scrimmmage. Not much has changed today as Logan usually stomps the dog crap out of them. You would NEVER , then or now , find an MSL school scheduling many of the SEOAL schools. Logan just ripped Hamilton a new butt for several years. Ever hear anyone in the MSL lusting to play Ironton, Portsmouth or Chilli ? How about weaker Jackson, Warren or Gallia ? Even Marietta, as bad as they have been played OCC or NE Ohio D-I schools well before losing. Your problem is much of the MSL is smaller division schools who have NEVER played well in larger division games and must even be selective in playing in their division . Check the schedules at Joe Eitel EVERYONE. Yes, take a good look at last year & years before. Look at who they play. At best, I see a weak hearted attempt to create a LARGER MSL division with OUTSIDE schools Logan & Chilli, & add misfit schools playing smaller division schools like Licking HTs. Maybe bring in OCC weak sister Watkins Memorial. And again, its not like the MSL teams looked to play non-league games with SEOAL schools because when that has happened in the past, it was embarassing for the MSL. Add Logan & Chilli but avoiding playing them except for larger school additions doesn't sell the MSL as some bad azz league. It only shows the truth of my position -- the MSL has been & remains a weaker league than the SEOAL. But Logan is flattered that people want them to play OTHER new & larger schools in a new division rather than the smaller fish of the current MSL where embarassment would prevail..

[bman]

And you are obviously from Logan so there can be claims to bias on both ends of the argument.

Let's take a look at some playoff games of late.

2009 - Logan 30, Canal Winchester 7
2008 - Logan Elm 28, Chillicothe 14
Chillicothe 13, Canal Winchester 7
2006 - Gallipolis 14, Fairfield Union 9
2002 - Gallipolis 30, Circleville 21
Ironton 14, Fairfield Union 13 (Ironton was independent at time but a gague)

Except for the Logan-Canal game this past season, it looks like the MSL doesn't get "embarrassed" by the SEOAL. Which goes back to my claim that the gap is closing. You need to get out of the 1970s and 80s where your reality had weight.

[Orange and Brown]

And you are obviously from Logan so there can be claims to bias on both ends of the argument.

Let's take a look at some playoff games of late.

2009 - Logan 30, Canal Winchester 7
2008 - Logan Elm 28, Chillicothe 14
Chillicothe 13, Canal Winchester 7
2006 - Gallipolis 14, Fairfield Union 9
2002 - Gallipolis 30, Circleville 21
Ironton 14, Fairfield Union 13 (Ironton was independent at time but a gague)

Except for the Logan-Canal game this past season, it looks like the MSL doesn't get "embarrassed" by the SEOAL. Which goes back to my claim that the gap is closing. You need to get out of the 1970s and 80s where your reality had weight.

The SEOAL is 4-1 well 5-1 if you count the Ironton win against you guys Logan would Own the MSL in most years!

[bman]

^ The argument being advanced though is the SEOAL as a whole would embarrass the MSL, which means kick the crap out of them in games. The results show, that while the SEOAL does win most of the games, that the MSL team is able to play a pretty good game against the vaunted SEOAL teams.

[Orange and Brown]

Well if Logan decides it is best for then to go then they should and I'll be rooting for them all the way!

[datchillicav]

Where did the whole "chillicothe has a nomadic athletic program" thing come from. They joined the SEOAL a few years ago after shrinking to become one of the 2 or 3 smallest schools in a 30 team conference and the only school outside of the central district in the OCC. Chillicothe was in the OCC for 34 years before leaving and I think that everyone in Chilli, another OCC school, or another SEOAL school, would say that the move was warranted and beneficial. Before joining the OCC they were in the COL for decades and most of the schools in that league(Newark, Lancaster, UA, etc.) joined the OCC as well. Just trying to figure out where that comment came from? One League change in the last 40 years doesn't seem nomadic to me.

About competition, I think that the SEOAL is a better football conference and the MSL is probably better at basketball and I don't know about the rest of the sports. I feel that geographically the leagues are similar but the MSL is probably a better fit for Chilli and possibly Logan as well. The thing to consider is that most of the bigger MSL schools are growing and most SEOAL schools are shrinking. That factor could come into play when thinking about stability for both schools. Chillicothe's enrollment is still declining slightly but may be stabilizing. I don't feel that Logan is too big for the SEOAL but if other schools continue to shrink, they may be in 10 years so it may be advantageous for them to look closely at this move. Chillicothe can and will compete (not dominate) in both leagues. Joining the MSL would have some benefits immediately but could hurt in the long run if the MSL outgrows Chilli someday like the OCC did in the last 10-15 years.

IMO, it would be a somewhat lateral move for both schools, but they both owe it to themselves to explore simply because of the stability, travel, and enrollment issues relating to the SEOAL. Again, I am not advocating that either leave, but I would not be offended if either looks into the possibility.

[noreply66]

What school in the Chillicothe area is in $$$$$ trouble the most.If they were to close any of them, what school would be first?

[ChieftainGrad135]

Where did the whole "chillicothe has a nomadic athletic program" thing come from. They joined the SEOAL a few years ago after shrinking to become one of the 2 or 3 smallest schools in a 30 team conference and the only school outside of the central district in the OCC. Chillicothe was in the OCC for 34 years before leaving and I think that everyone in Chilli, another OCC school, or another SEOAL school, would say that the move was warranted and beneficial. Before joining the OCC they were in the COL for decades and most of the schools in that league(Newark, Lancaster, UA, etc.) joined the OCC as well. Just trying to figure out where that comment came from? One League change in the last 40 years doesn't seem nomadic to me.

I apologize for the "nomadic" comment. I guess a better way to put it from my end is it seemed like for a while, especially towards the end of their tenure in the OCC, that Chillicothe "had a place to sleep everynight", yet the OCC never treated them like a part of the family. I guess that is the best analogy I can use. Sorry if it doesn't sum it up clearly.

As for the competition level comparisons, I think that the SEOAL is SLIGHTLY better in football than the MSL is at this time. However, I think within the next 5 years, there will be no difference or actually a shift towards the MSL being better. Everyone keeps saying "the MSL is full of a bunch of small schools" and yes they have a large amount of smaller schools, but we have to be realistic and look at the probable divisional breakdown with having a "large" school division (primarily D2 and D3) schools. Its not like we would be playing the tiny schools of the league. We need to be realistic. Schools in the SEOAL are shrinking and will continue to do so for the forseable future, barring consolidation, and the majority of the MSL schools that we would be probably grouped with are going to be growing or stable.

[Orange and Brown]

MSL OHIO


Bexley-------254 D-3
Columbus Academy--137 D-5
Granville------------298 D-3
Heath---------------200 D-4
Lakewood----------264 D-3
Licking Valley------281 D-3
Newark Catholic---98 D-6
Whitehall-Yearling--331 D-3

MSL CARDINAL


Berne Union--------145 D-5
Fisher Catholic----- D-6
Grandview Heights--149 D-5
Harvest Prepatory--85 D-6
Liberty Union-------147 D-5
Licking Heights-----299 D-3
Millersport----------96 D-6
West Jefferson-----161 D-5


MSL BUCKEYE


Amanda-Clearcreek-----223 D-4
Bloom-Carroll-----------198 D-4
Canal Winchester------338 D-3
Circleville---------------290 D-3
Fairfield Union---------241 D-4
Hamilton Township---350 D-2
Logan Elm-------------274 D-3
Teays Valley----------434 D-2


Logan-----453 D-2
Chilli------331 D-3


Divisional Breakdown without Logan and Chilli
D-1------------0
D-2------------2
D-3------------9
D-4------------4
D-5------------5
D-6------------4

[Paladin]

Well, let me take the biggest schools --

Logan
Chilly
TV
Hamilton
Canal
Whitehall

Thats everyone with over 300 kids. Hamilton gets killed, Whitehall is truly awful, TV is a little better but not by much,Canal gets schooled by both Logan & Chilly and Logan wins this "league" title annually with Chilly getting it in a bad Logan year. The MSL is going to "go for this ??" Or are you going to add FU & Circleville to the annual bloodbath too ??

Pure genius !!

Can't say this would do anything to prep Logan for the playoffs and the computer rankings for points would take a major hit with many of these MSL dogs. Makes little sense.

[bman]

I agree with the sentiment that the SEOAL is a little better in football right now and the MSL a little better in basketball. And I agree about the continuing population shifts in the two leagues. In the secondary sports, the MSL is a pretty good conference and puts quite a few teams into the Final Four. Canal would hammer Logan, frankly, in most of the other sports. Football would be where Logan has the advantage at the moment.

[bman]

GAHS, I was just using the term "vaunted SEOAL" to make fun of Paladin's assertions that the MSL is some kind of cow pasture league that would be "embarrassed" by most teams in the SEOAL. While the SEOAL is the better of the two leagues in the head-to-head matchups in the playoffs, it isn't nearly as one-sided as Paladin's assertions. The MSL, by in large, has been pretty competitive.

The MSL has been around since the late 1940s and has a lot of history. I fully understand your support of the SEOAL as one of the oldest leagues in the state with a lot of history. Unfortunately the league seems to be having a harder time as there are fewer and fewer big schools in southeast Ohio. Maybe it needs to revamp as a D3-5 league, or maybe if we have some consolidation as the economy gets worse then maybe that will create some larger schools. It would be sad to see the SEOAL go away. I frankly don't care if Logan or Chillicothe come to the MSL. I can see some advantages for them with closer drives, but each school needs to make the proper decision for them.

[MTSWNGRVSG]

If this would happen the SEOAL might need to go calling on a school that keeps coming and going from the SEOAL, even if some on here do not like it or not. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do.

[LoganElm_grad09]

I think the MSL will restructure in the next 5 years, and if Logan and Chillicothe don't get an invite, I'd be suprised.

[bman]

I can understand your concern GAHS. Hopefully the SEOAL can stay going in some fashion.

[Paladin]

How would Logan have fared with the "powerhouse" MSL last year ?

Canal finished 8-2 but would have been 7-3 with Logan in the league. Add on Teays Valley 3-7( plus another Logan loss), Hamilton 0-10( with Logan already played), Circleville 3-7 ( plus another Loss to Logan), Whitehall 2-8 ( with another Logan loss) and Chilly at 1-9, which Logan already played . Logan would have struggled to make the playoffs with that line-up( and probably missed them) where the Logan schedule delivered Lancaster 6-4, Pick North 7-3, Ironton 8-2, Zanesville 9-1, Warren 7-3 and Jackson 7-3 and breezed into the playoffs. And at a better competitive level.

Given that Logan is a track power and their sports against this line-up of MSL "powerhouses" in other sports looks embarrassing easy for Logan, especially the girls sports, it leaves one question. While the travel would be a major improvment, do you risk lowering the competitve level and make getting to the playoffs harder with a weaker schedule ?

[dazed&confused]

I have said on here many times that Logan's future lies to the north and west. Does that imply the MSL? I don't think the change will occur in the next couple of years but when it does, it may not be this option in it's present state but there may be a new option in the future. Could it be a variation of the MSL based on other teams coming in? That would be my opinion. Teams in the DII size range on the southeast side of Columbus may form the basis of a new league or division off the MSL.