Varsity Coaches

[klaw10]

gahs4ever - Excellent topic! Basketball is the best example of what you explain. Too few minutes to go around even at the lower grade levels which utlimately drives a lot of kids away before they ever truly mature. You see a lot of "late bloomers" in track and sometimes football as the numbers allow more opportunity for playing time while kids develop....this keeps their interest and increases the odds they stick with it. Numbers alone don't solve the problem as strong coaching is also a critical factor in development. One of the best examples of this I have seen is how Greg Frualnfelter has developed the boys track program at Logan over the past 25 or so years.....You had kids from all walks of life or different clicks (sets or whatever they are called today) coming togethter to compete. Several reasons why.....he made if fun, encouraged everyone to participate and treated everyone the same. In addition, he would send different teams to differnt meets each weekend..."A" team to Columbus to compete against larger, more competitive schools, "B" team stuck around Southeastern Ohio and participated against local schools.....everyone had an opportunity and this resulted in very little attrition over the years and ultimatley fostered a culture of winning.

Finding a way to translate this to other sports (especially basketball) is very very difficult. Maybe implementing a club concept or more structured intramural program at lower grade levels would help.

[old-timer]

I have seen many male coaches for female sports and feel no problem is created when professionalism is used by the coach(such as language & addressing players). I know the biggest complaint I hear from girls is that they want coached like the boys; high expectations, dedication, criticized, respected, treatment, and work-ethic. Having coached both Varsity Baseball & Varsity Softball, the REAL competitive girls say, "Coach me like you would a boy!" They want that same respect+expectations to = RESULTS. Many make a mistake of not coaching the same way. Think about it, if you don't do it -- thats a violation of Title IX?

I am still waiting to (personally see) a southeastern Ohio school to higher a female to be the Head Varsity Coach of a Boys Squad!

[color=#0000FF] I believe GAHS4EVER may be able to help me but I think the is a Lady in Gallia county that has shown great interest in coaching biddie league boys basketball travel teams and I believe she expressed coaching JR. High Boys when the group became that age.

--ironman1987 defenitely is correct in what he is saying about parents, the parent that gets to a coach 1st, can often get the coach to see things the same way as the parent explains it, especially if the coach lacks the ability to be observe evaluate. We learned this through experience this past season . [/color]

IF ANYONE KNOWS OF ANY FEMALE COACHES IN A MALE VARSITY SPORT, PLEASE POST, INTERESTED IN RESULTS & THOUGHTS. I WOULD THINK BOYS WOULD RESPECT FEMALE COACHES WITH THE RIGHT ATTITUDE & PLAYED AT HIGHER LEVELS OR EXPERIENCE!

What are other's thoughts?

[sitting in the stands]

As far as any coaches being hired or not, the head coaches (at least in Logan) have a large say as to "who" is coaching at the different levels. Then it moves to the board for the final say so. Not sure how the process is done in other places. I can only speak from experience, I applied for a position in the boys program, as the freshmen coach, turned it in when I turned in for a bid position (teachers bid for positions in our district) for the different high school levels in the girls program also. The coaches were considered way before the bids were turned in, bids were a "formality". I'm fairly certain that I would not have been considered for a position in the boys program. This is based on comments from several different people "in the know". Not sure that a female will/would be hired in a male program in any sport.
I would still like to hear from other schools and their coaches in hoops (male vs female).

[Nagol1]

My understanding in applying for any coaching positions in Logan school district is decided upon by administrators (AD, Principal, Superintendent). Just because one applies and is a school employee does not guarantee they will be hired over a non employee. Gender of applicant does not matter either. Decisions are based on such things ability to work with others, able to communicate and work with athletes and knowledge of that sport. Usually failure to meet those requirements keeps an applicant from getting that position.

[klaw10]

My understanding in applying for any coaching positions in Logan school district is decided upon by administrators (AD, Principal, Superintendent). Just because one applies and is a school employee does not guarantee they will be hired over a non employee. Gender of applicant does not matter either. Decisions are based on such things ability to work with others, able to communicate and work with athletes and knowledge of that sport. Usually failure to meet those requirements keeps an applicant from getting that position.

All important factors...i would hope the head coach has some input as well as it is very important to have his/her system and philosophy implemented throughout the entire program. One of the worst scenarios would be having someone coaching somewhere in the system trying to do their own thing. I guess this would fall into the abiltity to work with others category. Head coach should be viewed as CEO of the program and have final say in all matters related to coaches. End of the day it is his/her butt on the line if they are fielding winning teams.

[Flatulence]

Very interesting topic. Then I saw my name and thought "wow." By the way last name is spelled Fraunfelter.

Now, my thoughts. First of all, the problem begins with colleges no longer having coaching classes lead by the college coaches. During my junior and senior years at Ohio University I enrolled in coaching classes in football, basketball, baseball, track and field, and wrestling. The college head coaches and their assistants taught the classes - in other words it was about actual data they had developed throughout their careers. Bill Hess, Jim Snyder, Bob Wren, Stan Huntsman, and Harry Houska were very intelligent and passionate about their sport. Today the coaching classes are about theory and are quite dry. The OHSAA class we had to take was just that - it was horrible!

One of the first things every single one of these men said was, "The first thing you must do is to get to know the people who are the cooks and janitors and the secretaries. The second thing you do is to include them in everything you do." How many coaches today do this? The next thing we were taught was to not be afraid of getting our hands dirty therefore if the toilet needed taken care of then do it.

We were taught that to reload a program and not rebuild you needed to bring along the athletes slowly and with patience. In every single case these men believed that throwing a freshman or sophomore to the wolves, so to speak, was the wrong way to do it. They stressed that a good team who had learned to play together over a few years would beat a group of great individuals. (Talking high school athletics here) The way some high school coaches coach today Michael Jordan would have not even been given a look at his junior year - he was cut his first two years.

This past spring in track we had a couple of freshmen boys who when running against varsity guys looked like a freshman boy. BUT, when they went up against others their own age they looked like men. We bring these young men along slowly hoping that by the end of the season they may contribute.

That leads to my next point. Too many coaches think their team needs to be at "peak" for the very first game. Maybe in football many years ago when there wasn't a tournament that was necessary, but not today. Those teams that are hitting their stride at the end of the season are the teams that advance. That is until they reach a school that just has superior athletes and or numbers. In track and field we at Logan have to compete against schools that are triple our size; therefore we do everything possible to advance as many as we can to the state, but we are quite aware that when it comes to speed we are outnumbered. In track and field we divide our team to go to two different meets AND we log times , heights, and distances and the next week will make changes accordingly so that when it comes to the end of the season we will have our two best competing in the individual events.

In closing, it is my humble opinion that if head coaches in basketball and football would allow a freshman to play with only fellow classmates and determine a reserve team - after all a reserve team is just that reserves for the next year - he or she will come out far ahead when having numbers from which to choose at the varsity level. My high school basketball coach, Keith Merrin of Merrin Athletics, would not keep a senior on the bench - only juniors. After I had graduated I asked him about that for an interview I did for my basketball coaching class and this is what he said, "Two reasons - a senior on the bench will cry for more playing time even if I know he will not help us and, two, by keeping 7 juniors I have 7 juniors who will try out as seniors along with the sophomores coming from the reserve team. Ideally, I will have 17 trying out who had been in the program the previous year PLUS a diamond in the rough always shows up in try outs." Coach Merrin had some very good basketball teams at Logan Elm and Mt Vernon.

Nagol, this is probably not how they did it at Akron St. Vincent, but heck, when players like Labron come through the other four don't have to be good. All they have to do is get in the way!

Back to the topic, I am a firm believer that a woman should head up a woman's program. HOWEVER, when the women do not wish to take the time necessary what is an administrator to do? Furthermore, I have NEVER been comfortable with a person not involved within a school district as an employee to be coaching. I also believe that IF a person wants to coach but has not taken a coaching class or two then they be required to do so - a real coaching class not that thing that is being passed off by the OHSAA as one.

You may not agree with me but that is okay. What i do works for me.

[sitting in the stands]

Nagol1 "Gender of applicant does not matter either." Are you really trying to say that they would hire a female to coach a male basketball team? Highly unlikely! But it would be a nice thought.

[Ironman92]

flatulence ...agree with most everything except for the freshman thoughts.....many smaller schools have little choice but to play the freshman in those sports for the more mature....as you know better than probably anyone...Logan is a big boy on this site.....schools with 84 boys 9-12 probably have some freshman being pretty significant contributors to their varisty programs.

Your 2nd paragraph is dead on the way to go IMO.

[klaw10]

Nagol1 "Gender of applicant does not matter either." Are you really trying to say that they would hire a female to coach a male basketball team? Highly unlikely! But it would be a nice thought.

Not Nagol1 but i will answer. By law gender can't be a consideration. You are dealing in hypotheticals here. If a quality/qualified female applicant were ever to apply i think she would be considered. I am willing to guess this has never actually happened. Would love to know the last time a female applicant with relevant, quality coaching experience ever actually applied.

[Tall One]

HHMMMMM. I took a mandatory 2 week vacation from this site a few months back for voicing my opinion on politics and Logan. We left Logan. My kid is very happy where she is. She is being treated with respect. I will not comment on this (even tho it is not about Logan) because people like to jump on me for having an opinion. Good luck with what you are trying to do SITS.

[shakennotstirred]

you really dont hear too much about female coaches applying let alone actually getting a head boys coaching job. i assume most school boards wouldnt ever want to go "against the grain" or "think outside the box" and actually hire a woman for a boys coaching job even if she was more qualified. this would go against pretty much every small town high school coaching "mens club".

tall one, try ohiochatter.com for more candid conversations with no censorship

[Flatulence]

Ironman 92, you may be correct about the 9th grade thing. My concern comes more from the psychological aspect for a kid that young. As far as small schools I know what you mean. I graduated in a class of 73 and at the time that was a fairly large school. But, every year we had well over 20 try out for basketball. I think one of the reasons was because not only did Coach Merrin teach Math, but he organized and administrated an intramural program during lunches. As I type this I remember six who were cut from the team only to make the team the very next year and it happened because of the intramural program Coach Merrin established. A good, positive intramural program tends to bring forth more interest in a program of a particular sport. I was also lucky that Logan Elm was, and basically still is, a basketball school because of the agrarian nature of the community.

But, the real topic here is female coaches for female sports. IF a female is available who wishes to put in the time, then, by all means, a woman needs to be involved in a program. IF there are people on the staff of a school system who wish to put in the time, then, by all means, they need to be involved in the program. This is something I am very adamant about as a result of experiences had.

Finally, there is the aspect of teaching skills involved in the coaching of a sport and it involves not only skills for the sport, BUT life skills. In spite of the entitlement nature of much of today's culture there remains the truth that success results from desire, dedication, determination, and discipline. It is, in my opinion, the responsibility of a coach to teach these characteristics fervently within their program. I come from a generation that was taught in sports and coaching classes that that was the educational aspect of sport. IF a coach is not teaching these aspects in some shape, form, or manner then, in my estimation, they are failing the athletes. If they are teaching these components, then God bless them. And, once again, in my opinion, it is our duty as a head coach to accept these responsibilities. I, also, believe that it is an honor to be able to do this.

Many administrators, coaches, and parents seem to have lost their way and believe that coaching sports is all about winning and that that is it. I am one of those old fuddy-duddies who happens to believe that when you actually teach sport skills and success skills the winning will, eventually, take care of itself. If I were to win a state championship that would mean less to me than when I have former athletes come to me, maybe, years later and thank me for all of my efforts to teach them some things about life. THAT is what coaching in high school sport is all about.

[bball4evr]

Cambridge had a female boys jv coach a few years back, don't know what happened to her but she was the head jv coach.

[chiefs31]

I agree it would be great to see more women in coaching. Not sure why there aren't - is it cultural, is it because of the family thing, is it something else? I don't think it is because administrators don't want them, in fact with all the scary liability issues out there they probably think it would be easier to have women. It just seems that there aren't as many women interested in coaching as there are men. There are some VERY good women coaches out there, just not as many women coaches overall it seems.

I would also say that most administrators would be scared to hire a woman to coach a boys team, especially as head coach. Just wouldn't want to risk it, I guess. Not fair, but probably true. I will say that the most qualified person should get the job, man or woman. Can you imagine Pat Summit coaching a boys team? That would be something to see her ripping into a guys team! She would be as good or better as any man.

However, if we are insinuating here that there is some conspiracy at the high schools in southeastern ohio to keep women out of high school jobs simply because they are women, I think that is patently false. As stated before I think administrators would rather have a woman at the helm or in the program. Often people are kept out of jobs they would like to have or think they should have because they aren't the right person for the job. It's easier to think that the real reason was because the "boys club" didn't let them in, but it might that someone else was simply more qualified. Not aiming this anywhere particular. But I wouldn't want my children to play for anyone but the best coach, man or woman.

[know your role]

Perfectly said chiefs31.

[ole chief]

There certainly is an "old boys club in Logan. It is called the Inner Circle. Has existed for years. SITS- I really don't think a women can be successful at Logan (or any other small town for that matter) in coaching. Especially when so many of the coaches allready involved are football coaches. Too many politics involved. It should go to the person most qualified, regardless of male or female. Logan has a butcher and a probation officer at the Jr high level. These guys get by with intimidating instead of motivating. They have adopted a football coaching mentality. Does anybody really have to ask why the only kids playing in high school are current or prior AAU players? AAU kids are used to hard work and having to earn their way instead of politics playing such a role. They are used to a tough coaching style, But they also are used to being respected. The respect part is sorely missing at Logan.

[Nagol1]

Ole Chief sounds like that old blogger "Tall One" that got booted out of preps a few months ago!

[ole chief]

Sorry coach, Tall one happens to be a good friend. We share some of the same views. I just think tall one has moved on and put all this behind her. I, on the other hand, still care about Logan's program.

[klaw10]

"Inner Circle" bs again? Give me a break! Can someone please tell me who the "inner circle" members are? When do they meet?

Ole Chief your post makes no sense...what are you even trying to say?

Why did tall one get booted? I thought the only way to get booted was by calling out SITS or Pfloyd.

[Tall One]

All right Nagol, you called me out, apparently u want to hear from me. So are you ready? I don't care. I have learned there are more important things in life and so has my dtr. She has recently watched her hero fight for 6 years against throat cancer. Her Daddy lost his battle on Aug 1st. She watched him fight through 4 major surgeries, chemo and radiation. She watched him fight to the very end. She learned how to be strong, how to fight for what you want, and that there are more important things in life than basketball. Now she has to learn how to survive without him. She isnt worried about basketball, she is worried about more important things like, Who will walk her down the aisle when she gets married. She is a fighter like him and will be fine in life. You can take your program and move on from here, we have.