He Who Took His Talents To South Beach

[Charge]

Yes Wilt, and Russell were dominate player of their time, but players they played against in those days couldnt compare to some of the high school players of today. Athletes have changed alot. If Wilt played todays game he wouldnt be near as good, and thats a fact. Wilt couldnt move Shaq or Howard.

Please don't talk about players you have never seen play. Wilt was probably the strongest player to ever play and Russell was most complete center ever, never been one who played defense like him. LeBron wouldn't make a hair on these guys @$$. I wouldn't put D. Howard in the top players of today let alone all time. He has very little shooting skills away from the basket, watch some film on Jabbar or Oljaween both these guys were great shooters.

[Charge]

Rebels on 3 here is a comparison for you between Wilt and LeBron's first seven years in the NBA.
Wilt LeBron
37.6 pts 27 reb 20.9 5.5 reb
38.4 pts 27.2 reb 27.2 7.4
50.4 25.7 31.4 7.0
44.8 24.3 27.3 6.7
36.9 22.3 30.0 7.9
34.7 22.9 28.4 7.6
38.9 23.5 29.7 7.3

Wilts numbers are way better. Wilt's worst year is better then Le Bron's best year.

[mister b]

The Heat, minus LeBron, go into Denver and get creamed by Carmello and co. Not a good road trip for the Heat who continue to struggle vs teams with a winning record after they got beat the night before by the lowly Clippers.

LeBron has nothing to bad mouth about the Cavs front office or the fans. They catered to LeBron from day one. He picked his teammates, he picked the coach, his friends were given meaningless jobs with the organization and his posse, including his family, got to ride to the road games on the team plane and stay at the team hotel free of charge. Several teams that he considered signing with wouldn't agree to these demands, the Heat did.

If the Cavs and Gilbert are guilty of one thing, that is putting all their eggs in one basket and letting LeBron have final say on major decisions with the organization. Bad move by Gilbert, but he did this to appease LeBron in hopes of getting him to stay there and to try to bring a title to Cleveland and I don't blame the guy for trying even though I wished he would have just told LeBron don't let the door hit you in the a s s on the way out.

[farmer]

To be considered one of the greatest to ever play the game the player needs to play big in big games. Which LeBron has not as well as not hitting the big shots at the end of the big games. He is a gifted with physical abilities but with that you rarely see him just take over a game. He puts up big stats but does that make his team better? His rebound stats are not as good as a player with his size and skills should be. He doesn't make the players around him better like Magic Johnson did. The same for Bill Russell. Also the great players would take the blame when their team lost which LeBron never likes to take the blame for anything. That is one of the reason why LeBron is not in the top 10 players of all time. So you two can keep dreaming about that. If LeBron can elevate his game he could get there but right now he is not.

[gymrat88]

To be considered one of the greatest to ever play the game the player needs to play big in big games. Which LeBron has not as well as not hitting the big shots at the end of the big games. He is a gifted with physical abilities but with that you rarely see him just take over a game. He puts up big stats but does that make his team better? His rebound stats are not as good as a player with his size and skills should be. He doesn't make the players around him better like Magic Johnson did. The same for Bill Russell. Also the great players would take the blame when their team lost which LeBron never likes to take the blame for anything. That is one of the reason why LeBron is not in the top 10 players of all time. So you two can keep dreaming about that. If LeBron can elevate his game he could get there but right now he is not.

You must have seen a different LeBron James than I am familiar with.

1) "rarely see him just take over a game"- vs Detroit, game 5, 29 of his team's last 30 points. He has had eight 50 point games and 37 games with a triple double. You don't call that taking over a game? What more do you want from a guy?

2)"He doesn't make the players around him better like Magic Johnson did"- Are you kidding me? He took a team from lottery pick to playoffs in 2 years, took a team with guys like Drew Gooden, Larry Hughes, and Boobie Gibson to the NBA finals, and the Cavs who last year held the best record in the league now have the worst record in the league, with really the only meaningful subtractions being LeBron and Z, and you say he doesn't make his teammates better? He is the best in the NBA at making his teammates better. Plus LeBron is compared to Magic more than any player to ever play Basketball, and you are contrasting him from Magic.

What more do you people want out of this guy? He took a group of average players and poor coaches and made them a top 5 NBA team, and you say he didn't elevate HIS game? How about everybody else? How about Mo Williams? Shaq? Larry Hughes? Ben Wallace? All players who went fishing come playoff time, and you say LEBRON didn't elevate HIS game?

I am shocked at the bias and the ridiculous posts coming from you people. It is truly amazing.

[farmer]

To be considered one of the greatest to ever play the game the player needs to play big in big games. Which LeBron has not as well as not hitting the big shots at the end of the big games. He is a gifted with physical abilities but with that you rarely see him just take over a game. He puts up big stats but does that make his team better? His rebound stats are not as good as a player with his size and skills should be. He doesn't make the players around him better like Magic Johnson did. The same for Bill Russell. Also the great players would take the blame when their team lost which LeBron never likes to take the blame for anything. That is one of the reason why LeBron is not in the top 10 players of all time. So you two can keep dreaming about that. If LeBron can elevate his game he could get there but right now he is not.

You must have seen a different LeBron James than I am familiar with.

1) "rarely see him just take over a game"- vs Detroit, game 5, 29 of his team's last 30 points. He has had eight 50 point games and 37 games with a triple double. You don't call that taking over a game? What more do you want from a guy?

2)"He doesn't make the players around him better like Magic Johnson did"- Are you kidding me? He took a team from lottery pick to playoffs in 2 years, took a team with guys like Drew Gooden, Larry Hughes, and Boobie Gibson to the NBA finals, and the Cavs who last year held the best record in the league now have the worst record in the league, with really the only meaningful subtractions being LeBron and Z, and you say he doesn't make his teammates better? He is the best in the NBA at making his teammates better. Plus LeBron is compared to Magic more than any player to ever play Basketball, and you are contrasting him from Magic.

What more do you people want out of this guy? He took a group of average players and poor coaches and made them a top 5 NBA team, and you say he didn't elevate HIS game? How about everybody else? How about Mo Williams? Shaq? Larry Hughes? Ben Wallace? All players who went fishing come playoff time, and you say LEBRON didn't elevate HIS game?

I am shocked at the bias and the ridiculous posts coming from you people. It is truly amazing.

1. Rarely yes rarely do you see LeBron take over in BIG GAMES. You listed 1 game. There is many games at the end he was ineffective.Sometimes not wanting to take the winning shot or throwing up a long 3 point shot instead of driving to the basket for a closer shot or free throws. He is not a clutch free throw shooter. No matter what he did earlier in the game. 37 triple doubles compared to Oscar Robertson averaging a triple double for an entire year does not come close to the BIG O.

2. Yes the Cavs had the BEST Regular season but he gave up against the Celtics. You give the how about everyone else excuse just like LeBron would but without saying LeBron did not show up. Glad you are shocked by some of the truly amazing posts on here.

LeBron plays well when he can play around but has trouble when he has to get serious and play the game. Just as many people said about him last year as they were winning all the games in the regular season. All the playing around didn't help in the playoffs. Which is why the regular season doesn't mean a lot.

[gymrat88]

Game 3 vs. Washington. Playoffs 2006- 45 points 7 Rebounds 6 Assists including a game winner with 0.9 seconds left

Game 3 vs. Detroit. Playoffs 2007- Cavs were down 2-0. Game tied at 68. James has a dunk over Wallace to pump his teammates and get them going to a 88-82 win. He has 32 points 9 rebounds and 9 assists

Game 6 vs. Boston. Playoffs 2008- 32 of his team's 74 points, 12 rebounds, 6 assists including one of the most famous dunks in playoff history "with no regard for human life".

Game 2 vs. Orlando. Playoffs 2009- 35 points including one of the best playoff buzzer beater shots in playoff history to win the game and tie the series 1-1.

Overall in the playoffs, LeBron has averaged 29 points 8 rebounds and 7 assists. Kobe has averaged 25 points (4 less) 5 rebounds (3 less) and 7 assists (2 less) in the playoffs for his career. Oscar Robertson averaged 22 points in the playoffs for his career.

Farmer- the only thing your basing ANY of your BIAS on is last year's Boston series. IT WAS ONE SERIES! You and other haters and Cavs fans must have hit your head, because you obviously have amnesia, that or selective memory loss. I just gave you 4 other playoff games where he either "took over" or "hit the big shot". The playoffs, which you could call a "clutch" moment, sees LeBron have better playoff numbers than Kobe, who is considered the most clutch player in Basketball, and Oscar Robertson, someone you folks seem to want to compare LeBron to. Rebels on 3 is dead on, if LeBron played in Oscar's time, he would have been unstoppable. More than Oscar. The athletes are so much better today physically, it is not even a contest.

[Charge]

gymratt88, I'm guessing you are not old enough to have watched basketball back in the seventies to make such a statement. Who today makes better moves then Dr J? Today you have Blake Griffen who can jump, back then you had David Thompson the skywalker, Darrel Griffith Dr Dunkinstien, who use to grab a quarter off the top of the banking board and then you had Darrel Dawkins who wasn't very strong, he only shattered about five banking boards. In the sevenities every team had some great players, which made every game exciting. It is funny when younger people who never watched a game say the players weren't as talented and strong. Players back in those days cared about winning, which very few do today. Give me basketball back in the seventies and early eighties in day. Anyone who remembers watching the 1976 Boston-Phoenix NBA Championship knows what I am talking about, neither of the two were my team but that was some great basketball to watch.

[farmer]

The athletes are so much better today. Well in physical strength yes. But that does not make them better with basketball skills. Like dribbling the ball without palming the ball, boxing out, the mid range jump shot and playing team defense amongst other things. Players of today play in better conditions than players in the past. Like the Boston Garden during NBA Finals in June without air conditioning. Better travel and hotel rooms to stay in. But in the past many players played the game because they loved the game where today it is more of look at me and pay me attititude.Players of today rely more on athletic ability more than basketball skills.

Sure LeBron scores a lot of points but at the end of big games he was ineffective when the game was on the line. Unlike Kobe who may have scored less points per game but when you need a basket during the regular season or playoffs Kobe would come thur way more than not. Which many people have complained about LeBron during his NBA career when the game is on the line he would come up short more then step up and make the play. LeBron free throw % would go down at the end of games.

What is LeBron's go to shot when the game is on the line? If LeBron has on these dominate skills he should be unstoppable at the end of games.

[gymrat88]

farmer- I agree with you that Basketball skills are not nearly as refined today as they once were. You're right in the fact that shooting, ball handling, and unselfishness has been depleted over time, and as a Basketball fan, I hate to see that. But at the same time when you have supreme athleticism, it makes up for a lot of deficiencies in other areas. I will be the first to admit that LeBron is not a consistently good mid range shooter and free throw shooter, and that he does not sometimes assert himself as much as he should, but because he is such a freak of an athlete he doesn't have to be a great shooter to be a great Basketball player. Part of his lack of assertiveness though sometimes is due to his unselfish nature on the floor. If you watch him play you know that he does try to involve his teammates. LeBron definitly has an ego and is a showman, but I don't have a problem with professional athletes or athletes in general having big egos. IMO, it's just a part of sports and every great player is narcissistic.

[Orange and Brown]

DA BULLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rebels on 3]

Im sorry but I just dont see Wilt being stronger than Shaq in his prime or D.Howard.

[farmer]

Last night LeBron scored 34 points on 11 -30 shooting. But with the game on the line he is taking long 3 point shots. Once with the game tied he had time to drive to the basket for a closer shot or draw a foul but throws up a shot 5 feet beyond the 3 point line.

This is not the first time he has done this. Some of his shots he took are not taken in the offense. LeBron will take bad 3 point shots at the end of the game. He can make long trick shots while goofing off during practice and before games. This hurts LeBron because he does not have a shot from anyplace on the floor that is his go to shot. This is one reason why he will not be considered one of the greatest top 5 players to play the game. He maybe end up in the top 5 in scoring but there is more to the game than scoring a lot of points.

[Rebels on 3]

But LBJ did hit two big 3's in OT that kept them in the game.

[Orange and Brown]

Im sorry but I just dont see Wilt being stronger than Shaq in his prime or D.Howard.

Wilt was very strong... It was a rougher tougher NBA when Wilt played you had to be stong inside or you would get eaten up.

[Rebels on 3]

The Hawks are for real this year. I have thought for the last 3 years that they are very close to a championship team. I like Mike Bibby but I think they need to get a younger guard.

[Orange and Brown]

DA BULLS!

[farmer]

But LBJ did hit two big 3's in OT that kept them in the game.

So what.
He could have won the game at the end of regulation. It is not that he missed those shots it is they were very bad shots. Low percentage shots with not much chance of going in. LeBron's shot selection at the end of games is not good at times.

[Rebels on 3]

I just think you guys just need to give up on the LBJ topic, cause guess what, no matter how much you hate him he's goin to be around for a long time and one day he will be in the top three in scoring, and he will have more than one ring. At this point in his career only Wilt has better numbers, and if that dont tell you that LBJ is one of the best of all time then I'm sorry but your wrong. You should just be happy to get to see a man with talent like LBJ.

[farmer]

Talent of LBJ throwing up long 3 point shots and missing at the end of the game. Having talent but when the game was on the line his talent in chosing a GOOD SHOT was not good. Rebel do you actually think those shots were good shots that he missed at the end of the game? Sure he made shots but not when it was for the win.

So he scores a lot of points even if he finishes with the most points scored that still will not make him the best player ever. To consider him the best of all time now is a joke in itself. He may get hurt and never play again or even if he doesn't he still is not the best player ever. He maybe the best talent but not the best player. That is not just my opinion that is a lot of people who follow the game as well as NBA players and past players.