Southeast District D4 Rankings 2-17-11

[jimmy chipwood]

2-17-11 Rankings


1. Eastern Meigs (16-2) - Regains the top spot by beating Waterford and Trimble by 11 each. Best Wins = Manchester, Waterford (2x), Trimble (2x), Wahama.


2. Manchester (15-3) - Very nice win over strong Ironton team 61-57 at home. Truth must be told that Ironton's rostor was a little depleted for this game but a win is a win. Best Wins = D3's Peebles, Ironton, Eastern Brown, and CNE along with D4's Fairfield and Whiteoak.


3. South Webster (14-4) - Beat East and Waverly before losing to Oak Hill. Best Wins = D3 Portsmouth, D3 Wheelersburg, D3 Valley, D2 Waverly, and Green.


4. Symmes Valley (15-3) - Beat East and New Boston. Best Wins = Green, Clay, South Gallia, ISJ, and Eastern Pike.


5. Green (14-5) - Defeated Clay by 7 and Rock Hill by 9. Best Wins = D3 Minford, Symmes Valley, ISJ, and Eastern Pike.


6. Fairfield (8-10) - Beat West Union by 25 and Fayetteville by 16 before dropping a close game to D2 Hillsboro by 7. Best Wins = D2 Miami Trace, Whiteoak, D3 Lynchburg Clay and D3 North Adams by 38. Doesnt have a bad loss!


7. Trimble (11-8) - Defeated South Gallia by 8, Belpre by 19, and lost to Eastern Meigs by 11. Best Wins = D3 Alexander, Southern, D3 Nelsonville York, Waterford, Wahama, and South Gallia.


8. Clay (11-8) - Lost to Green 65-58. Best Wins = Eastern Pike (2x), Green, Symmes Valley and ISJ.


9. Racine Southern (11-8) - Won two games beating Miller by 24 and S.Gallia by 9 on the road. Best Wins = Eastern Meigs, Trimble, Wahama, and South Gallia (2x).


10. Whiteoak (8-11) - Won two games defeating Fayetteville by 16 and D3 Felecity by 11. Best Wins = Manchester, D3 Eastern Brown, and Fairfield.


*Waterford (10-8) - drops out of the rankings for the first time. Lost 3 games to Eastern Meigs, Frontier, and South Gallia.

*South Gallia (9-10) - split four games beating Miller and Waterford, while losing to Southern and Trimble. Best Wins = Wahama and Waterford.

*Eastern Pike (10-8) - beat East and lost to Northwest. Best Win = Minford.

*ISJ (11-7) - I am assuming they played and beat East this past week. Best Win = Wellston.

[The Ghost of Swanker]

how does meigs go from 3rd to 1st??

[jimmy chipwood]

They were 2nd last week. Since the loss to Southern they have been taking care of business and winning games comfortably. Trimble and Waterford are not slouches. If I didnt have any balls I would have a three way tie for first and a four way tie for 7th. There is very little difference in these teams but a decision has to be made. If I had to rate the teams by SOS there is no doubt South Webster would have the #1 SOS. Man, you got me thinking about putting that together now.

[KingJames]

Love the rankings this week

[The Ghost of Swanker]

Atleast you can explain yourself Webster plays Valley at Webster tomorrow and it is senior night. We still have an open date for any team who wants to get tuned up before the post season. I look for the win tomorrow and a 12 day layoff.

[BlindWhiteHat]

St. Joe beats Raceland, KY tonight 59-43.

[jimmy chipwood]

Weekend Scores

Ripley 68
Manchester 54

Eastern Meigs 61
Racine Southern 48

Whiteoak 58
West Union 38

Eastern Brown 56
Fairfield 54

Fairfield 52
Manchester 50

South Webster 62
Lucasville Valley 61

Symmes Valley 88
Western Pike 33

Clay 58
Notre Dame 57

South Gallia 62
Miller 50

ISJ 59
Raceland 45

Green 72
Eastern Pike 62

Belpre 55
Waterford 50

Trimble 53
Federal Hocking 43

Symmes Valley W
Eastern Pike

Waterford 52
Frontier 42

[svbt1112]

Jimmy:

I want to thank you for the rankings this year. Division 4 teams have little chance being ranked by PFloyd (and rightfully so) and this gave us a discussion point this year. I enjoyed when you ranked Manchester ahead of Eastern earlier and showed you would have your own mind (even though I disagreed, but that made it more fun now didn't it?). As we move into the postseason a couple of thoughts:

Reedsville Eastern: 17-2 with Wahama left on 2-23. Beat Manchester earlier which gave them credibility, but lost to Southern and Valley (on a neutral floor). With the exception of the Manchester win they have NO Big wins. Is their record a result of their schedule? Is the TVC Hocking down this year? These questions will be answered in a few weeks when they play the Fairfield vs Clay winner in the District Semi-Finals.

Manchester: 15-5 and limping in losing 4 games in the last month with 2 losses this weekend. Lots of talent----is it all playing together? Are they well-coached? Will they cruise through their district or stumble? Can Symmes Valley rise up and knock them off in the District Final or will they be the last team standing in the Barn at the Regional Final?

South Webster: 15-4 and winners of 9 out of 10. Will their tough schedule prepare them for the tournament or has it wore them down? Did Notre Dame vote them the 2 seed because they thought they could win the 2 vs 7 match-up? Can they overcome the poor performance at the Convo last year? Will they come through their District and face Manchester in the Regional? Do they have enough to make it to the Final 4?

Symmes Valley: 17-3 and definitely playing good basketball vs SOC1 teams of late. Does the SOC1 wins equate with tournament victories? Can they take their game to the Convo floor and knock off Green/Whiteoak and then Manchester? Will they be in over their heads? This team is the "sleeper" of the whole group in my opinion.

Fairfield/Whiteoak: sub 500 regular seasons----tournament ready? Both teams have tough tournament trails to win a district. Fairfield would have to defeat Clay then Reedsville then Webster (if form holds) and Whiteoak would have Green then Symmes Valley then Manchester. At least they don't have to play each other in the Sectional!

Green/Clay: Can they knock off the SHL teams and make it to the Convo? Both lost first round games last year and have not been tournament tested with these groups of kids. How far can they go?

[pfloyd]

... Great "stuff" Jimmy Chipwood !!! enjoy reading the breakdowns for the Div 4 group ... as svb1112 posted extremely difficult to rank the D4's vs ALL of the teams of the "bigger" divisions in Southern/Southeastern Ohio while giving them their just dues ... great job JC in sticking up for these excellent D4 basketball schools ...

[art_vandelay]

sbvt1112: I hope Webster gets a shot at ND and I hope the kids are made very aware of ND voting them second. Should be fun.*

[svbt1112]

Mr. Vanderlay* I assure you that the Jeep that resides in this house understands the issue* Be careful what you wish for would pertain here.*

[The Ghost of Swanker]

They are aware, and are ready.

[BlindWhiteHat]

Isn't it possible that ND voted South Webster #2 because they thought Manchester was better and deserved the #1 seed? Also, keep in mind that ND didn't become the #7 seed until after SW had already secured the #2. ND was tied for #6 and lost a coin flip to end up with the #7. Let's not get so dramatic and assume that ND disrespected SW and tried to rig the seedings so they could play each other.

[oldpgguy]

Isn't it possible that ND voted South Webster #2 because they thought Manchester was better and deserved the #1 seed? Also, keep in mind that ND didn't become the #7 seed until after SW had already secured the #2. ND was tied for #6 and lost a coin flip to end up with the #7. Let's not get so dramatic and assume that ND disrespected SW and tried to rig the seedings so they could play each other.

+2

[pleasanttiger]

So Art, why do you think it was wrong for the ND coach to vote for how he sees the teams being ranked?

[jimmy chipwood]

One of the things I like about compiling D4 rankings is that they are always changing. Unlike D3/D2 where some teams just are not going to lose very often (Peake, Peebles, Piketon, Chilly, etc) the D4 teams are usually forced to play bigger schools and will have their share of losses making the rankings a challenge from week to week. It would not have been extremely difficult for me to rank the entire 19 D4 teams like I did a few times. I might do that next year.

Svb1112,

As for the questions/thoughts. I dont think the TVC Hocking is down or weak when compared to the SOC 1. All 3 of the major conferences (SHL 2, SOC 1, TVC-Hocking) were pretty comparable when you play #1 vs #1, #2 vs #2, and on down the line. Of course the SHl 2 only has 4 D4 schools - you couldnt count Peebles.

Obviously the final regular season rankings will change significantly with South Webster finishing strong. The way Symmes Valley finished the season makes them part of the elite "4" of Division 4 basketball in my eyes. The whole season it has been pretty much SW, EM, and Manch but I think Symmes has more than earned the right to join that elite group.

As for Manchester without their starting PG I expected Fairfield to beat them by more than 2 so that to me is not a bad loss but just a loss despite Fairfield's record (which you can throw out the window anyway). The loss to 18-2 Ripley is obviously not a bad loss either. They were in the game until the 2nd half and than got blown out a little (not sure if it was partly due to injury of PG??).

I really believe that Fairfield and Whiteoak are small favorites going into their tournament games this year. Those will be interesting games sort of like a SHL/SOC Challenge and will paint a clear picture about the unimportance of win/loss records and the importance of SOS. I watched Clay play ND and came away feeling that Clay's defense is suspect as they seem to be ballwatchers letting there men cut to the basket on them. They also hold the ball on the wing and stare at the post for two seconds (some would say forcing the ball to the post). This hurts their ball movement and allows defenses to read their eyes and get deflections. Anyway, enough about Clay. They are still a nice team with a good balance of inside/outside players.

Whiteoak and Green is almost a coin toss but I give a slight edge to whiteoak.

[jimmy chipwood]

I am going to see if I can shed light or (maybe I am completely wrong) on the Valley sectional draw and try to explain why I believe Whiteoak got the #6 seed - and the bottom line is that it all comes down to Manchester getting the #1 seed.

Facts: (at least I think)
#1 Manchester got 6 votes. (Manch, Fairfield, ND, Western, New Boston, East)

#6 Whiteoak got 5 votes and won coin toss. (Whiteoak, Fairfield, Manchester, Western, and South Webster)


Here is some questions/conclusions that pop in my mind right off the bat!

Once Manchester got the #1 seed things make sense how the #6 seed voting went. Western, realistically would have a better chance of pulling off an upset against Notre Dame than they would of beating Whiteoak - so they voted in their best interest = completely understandable. South Webster voted Whiteoak #6 because they would much rather play ND than Whiteoak for a chance to advance - cant blame them they voted for their best interest. The 3 SHL teams obviously voted for who they thought was the better team and fellow league member.

The #1 voting is what I dont understand as clearly! Like someone said ealier maybe they just voted who they thought was the true #1 seed. Manchester was 15-3 and coming off of a win over D3 Ironton.

[BlindWhiteHat]

I think a big problem you run into is that coaches have to vote on teams they have never seen. Just look at the Manchester vs. South Webster debate. I would think that most SOC schools didn't see Manchester play and could only judge them based on what they have heard, maybe even info from this site. It is possible that a coach in the SOC played South Webster and was beaten badly. I would find it difficult to vote a team #1 without seeing them play when you know you were beaten soundly by a team that in your opinion is deserving of a top seed. Plus, in this end of the state, people may have discounted the Manchester win over Ironton because they had two starters that didn't make the trip and one who was benched for the 2nd half. I am not saying it is fair to discount the win but it happens.

My big concern with these draws is when coaches have the ability to "choose their opponent" with the vote. I think that totally screws up the validity of the seeding process. If a coach votes for a team he plays over another because he hasn't seen the other team, I have no problem there because that just can't be avoided. When a higher seeded team gets to cast a vote to pick his opponent or to avoid an opponent, that is just a manipulation of the system.

[Grinder]

BlindWhiteHat, the higher seeded teams are going to play the weaker teams. That is the advantage of being the higher seed. I guarantee you a coach of a number 1 seed is going to put who he thinks is the weakest team to play. Records don't always determine who the best teams are. These coaches have all scouted these teams during the season, so they have a pretty good idea which team is better.

[BlindWhiteHat]

Grinder, what you are talking about, I am fine with. My problem is when the coach of team #2 votes for the worst team by far for the #7 just so he can play that team.

Plus, I disagree that every team in a Sectional has scouted every other team. Coaches are going to scout their regular season opponents first and if time permits they will watch other teams from the Sectional draw. Just an opinion about the Wellston Sectional but I would be shocked if St. Joe, Symmes Valley and Eastern Pike saw more than 4 of the 8 teams in their Sectional before the day the teams were seeded.