If the TVC teams don't think they can compete with SEOAL schools
The TVC actually has more of the decades-old SEOAL history within the TVC Ohio than the SEOAL has today.
TVC OHIO - former SEOAL members.......
Nelsonville-York [and formerly Nelsonville]
Meigs [and formerly Pomeroy and Middleport]
Wellston
Athens
River Valley [although not really considered a part of the decades old history]
SEOAL has Logan [at least for two more years], Jackson, and Gallia Academy
If you want to look at the decades old rivalries in the SEOAL, there are actually more of those matchups taking place in the TVC than the SEOAL today.
If the TVC has always been so afraid of the SEOAL, why has the TVC continually added SEOAL schools over time? In fact, it has been the TVC adding these teams that has caused the SEOAL to expand it's boundaries to the rediculous travel totals that exist today in the SEOAL. And those distances are the driving force behind each SEOAL school leaving one by one.
Maybe the deathblow to the SEOAL happened on that day in the late 1960's when Belpre, Warren, Vinton County and Federal Hocking decided to create a league called the Tri Valley Conference.
the answer to that question is an easy one......they could not continually play with the big boys.... and by the way fed hock, vc, warren and belpry are big power houses.... just leave the seoal and go to the tvc and instantly your a power house...
Jackson, Gallia Academy, and Portsmouth are out in the cold. TVC will NOT invite or take Jackson and Gallia. Jackson has been borderline D2 and Wellston along with Vinton County already play them. As of now, if they lose to Jackson it does not effect their league so why would they want them in the league? Nelsonville is getting smaller and Alexander is just getting their program going. As for Athens, didn't they run from the SEOAL? They aren't voting them in either. Jackson, Gallia, and Portsmouth will have serious problems if Logan and Chilli leave. As for Portsmouth . . . the SOC will not EVER let them in. Again, the Trojans already play West and 'Burg. Why would they want them in their league. Won't ever happen take it to the bank. I have not talked about Warren here because they are the wild card. They could possibly go to the ECOL or maybe the TVC. Let's all be honest here . . . we are talking football. I feel that for some reason the TVC is not too worried about Warren's football program. We'll see . . . however, I still say that Jackson, Gallia Academy, and Portsmouth will be playing 8 non-league game within 5 years. Wait and see what their travel expenses are and who they will have to schedule.
Da Bears wrote:Jackson, Gallia Academy, and Portsmouth are out in the cold. TVC will NOT invite or take Jackson and Gallia. Jackson has been borderline D2 and Wellston along with Vinton County already play them. As of now, if they lose to Jackson it does not effect their league so why would they want them in the league? Nelsonville is getting smaller and Alexander is just getting their program going. As for Athens, didn't they run from the SEOAL? They aren't voting them in either. Jackson, Gallia, and Portsmouth will have serious problems if Logan and Chilli leave. As for Portsmouth . . . the SOC will not EVER let them in. Again, the Trojans already play West and 'Burg. Why would they want them in their league. Won't ever happen take it to the bank. I have not talked about Warren here because they are the wild card. They could possibly go to the ECOL or maybe the TVC. Let's all be honest here . . . we are talking football. I feel that for some reason the TVC is not too worried about Warren's football program. We'll see . . . however, I still say that Jackson, Gallia Academy, and Portsmouth will be playing 8 non-league game within 5 years. Wait and see what their travel expenses are and who they will have to schedule.
I agree. I think Jackson and GA should both be talking to the Mid-State league. There's a lot of talk that those schools along 270 that are in the MSL Buckeye right now are talking to the OCC. If the OCC takes Canal Winchester, Hamilton Twp and Teays Valley and leaves Chillicothe and Logan out in the cold, the MSL Buckeye could look like this:
Circleville
Logan Elm
Amanda Clearcreek
Fairfield Union
Chillicothe
Logan
Jackson
Gallia Academy
That sounds ugly from a travel standpoint, but if the options are scheduling as an independent or playing a bunch of smaller schools from the OVC, I'd be willing to go for it.
I don't know what to think. Gallia is just barely D3 and with declining population, could be D4 easily in the next 5 years. I don't understand the hesitation that some of the TVC schools would have to inviting them into the league. If the SEOAL goes under, it seems like the logical fit.
Portsmouth is in even worse shape. They'd have almost no options at all.
Competatively, I agree that the MSL would be a great fit. And from a Jackson/Gallia standpoint, I agree the MSL would be a possibly good move. BUT........do you realistically think the MSL teams would openly accept Jackson and Gallia considering how far of a drive that is for them? Why on earth would a Canal Winchester want to expand to include Gallia Academy? What would be the incentive? That just creates a geographic nightmare for the MSL that existed in the SEOAL. That is a long drive! At least two hours. I think the drive to Chillicothe is a stretch for some MSL schools, and I don't think any drive longer than that would work for the current MSL schools.
I think the only schools the MSL would consider are the ones they invited to attend the expansion meeting that Chillicothe and Logan attended.
It is highly doubtful the MSL would take Jackson and Gallia.
If the worst came and the MSL plan was defeated and all five schools leave, there would still be 13 schools and it'd probably be easier to add the three Christian schools.
Buckeye Division
Columbus Academy
West Jefferson
Circleville
Logan Elm
Amanda-Clearcreek
Bloom-Carroll
Fairfield Union
Liberty Union
Cardinal Division
Millersport
Berne Union
Fisher Catholic
Grandview Heights
Harvest Prep
Worthington Christian
Grove City Christian
Fairfield Christian
Logan is over twice the size of Amanda, that would not work.
PORTSMOUTH WILL NEVER BE WELCOME IN THE SOC!!!! At least not in the next 15 years. PHS has never lost to Minford at 7-0 I believe, has historically dominated series with West(although West has been very competitive of late) , and Waverly, has never played Northwest or Valley. Although Valley is the season open in 2012, and Northwest was a scrimmage last season.
The SOC has made it more than clear that they have no interest in the Trojans, even though Northwest Waverly and Minford all have a larger male enrollment then the Trojans. PHS is only larger than West Valley and Burg.
As much as I hate to say this there are certain groups within the SOC that don’t want to allow PHS, because of our ethnic diversity. This is not all, and the people that feel this way I’m sure are not the ones in charge, although it is still an aspect of it. Anyone that has played for Portsmouth can attest to hearing inappropriate comments being hurled their way during games. Again, this is not a reflection on any school or the league because I don’t believe this is a driving force in the minds of the people in power, but there are small groups of people in some schools that feel this. On the same token there are people at PHS that don’t want in the SOC, because they view them as a county league. Neither connotation is correct but it still effects why PHS is not welcome.
The SOC, has not allowed Northwest to move to SOC1 in football, which would open a spot for PHS. The reasoning was that the divisions were set by size not competitiveness. Well that is no longer the case, Oak Hill is now larger than both Burg and Valley, yet no one is suggesting they move up as valley did a few years ago after Dominating SOC1. My point is it is time for change in the SOC as well, admit PHS to SOC2 and let Northwest move down, or expand to 3 divisions.
SOC2
PHS
Gallia
Jackson
Waverly
Burg
West
Minford
Valley
SOC1
Northwest
Symmes Valley
Oak Hill
ND
East
Green
Manchester ( football only)
Fayetteville (football only) both play independent
This format still allows for 3 non league games a year, make the SOC instantly better, has minimal travel, and gives everyone a fair chance to compete. I would put in a stipulation that any school having less than 155 boys can petition the conference to move down divisions if competition becomes a problem as well, as any school in the lower division can petition to move up if they feel they have out grown their division. At that time the conference could review realignment. I would also put a clause in that states any school with a male count more than 170, can be voted into the larger division if they have won 60 % or more of the titles in a 10 year span. This safe guards against Northwest beating up on the smaller schools, or Oak Hill if they continue to grow, however doesn’t penalize the smaller schools, if they just have a successful run.
None of this however will ever happen, as I have stated PHS nor GA, or Jackson are welcome. We are the big dogs still, and are not allowed in their yard. The SOC’s only interest in Portsmouth is, as a cash cow filling their coffers with the huge gates we bring them. If we really want in, we should threaten not to play West and Burg any more, then see how hard they push their fellow SOC members to push to get us in.
If the SEOAL does drop to only 3 someone please swallow your pride and give Ironton a call, 3 league games is better than 2 and the league can at least survive that way for awhile. PHS has been independent before, and the travel of it will not bother us as it will not be anything new for us. PHS was without league affiliation since the OAKC folded in the early 90’s till joining the SEOAL. PHS took trips to Columbus, Charleston, Cincinnati, St Clairsville, Amanda Clearcreek, Dayton, and others on a regular bases to fill the schedule, and will do it again if need be.
If the Trojans were going to get in the SOC I think it would have been the last time we tried with South Gallia, it was great package deal, that allowed both divisions to add a team, yet it was shot down even though every SOC 1 team already had SG on their schedule.
The more I think about it I don't see any other SEOAL teams getting into the TVC. They ran a little experiment a few years ago by adding perennial SEOAL bottom feeder Athens to the conference. The results determined Vinton County and Meigs were screwed if the SEOAL ever did collapse. If anything those two schools will make sure that a third division does not become a reality.
The SOC "Good Ole Boys" aren't going to change anything. They won't even take Portsmouth let alone Gallia Academy and Jackson.
There is a very good chance that these remaining SEOAL teams could be left as independents. I don't know about Warren, but I guess Jackson, Gallia, Portsmouth, and Ironton could maybe form some kind of alliance. It wouldn't be a true league obviously because four teams isn't enough, but at least they would have guaranteed football games weeks 7-10.
I guess we will just have to wait and see what Logan does. If they stay maybe the SEOAL can entice Athens to come back. Warren, Logan, Athens, Jackson, Gallia, and Portsmouth would be a very good league.
I don't know how this situation will end up, but it doesn't look good for the SEOAL. I never thought I'd see the day when Jackson, Logan, and Gallia Academy weren't together in the SEOAL. If Logan does, indeed, leave for the MSL, I'll be very disappointed. I understand that schools have to make decisions based on economics and what they feel is best for them overall, but I hate to see 86 years of tradition come to end.
When it was rumored that Jackson was looking into the TVC and SOC, I was very upset, but it appears that the administration was probably just trying to be proactive. If Logan and Chillicothe leave, and the SEOAL is left with only four schools, things could get very tough for those remaining programs. I'm sure Jackson, for example, could still easily schedule Logan and Chillicothe as non-conference games, but it would be very difficult for the SEOAL, as a league, to survive.
I could definitely see Jackson, GAHS, and Portsmouth approaching Ironton to return, but that definitely leaves Warren as the odd man out, and would almost guarantee that they will look elsewhere. Thinking of different scenarios makes my head hurt, though, so I think I'll just let it all play out.
As a coach who has spent 32 years at Logan I would hate to see the SEOAL fold. However, our track and field program no longer receives invitations from many SE Ohio schools to compete in their meets. Athens and Circleville stopped inviting us years ago. Nelsonville-York has invited us for the past few years and we love the meet; however, I will guess that they may lose many schools because they do not want to compete against a D-I school. Our 50 mile range for travel makes it difficult to actually travel and compete. We cannot seem to get invited to any of the invitationals in Columbus other than Pickerington North and Watkins Memorial. So, for one athletic program at Logan our success has made things a bit more difficult.
I also think that considerations must be made as to what and how many varsity sports there are in the leagues that make the invitations for a possible collaberation in joining. There are a few scenarios out there that would make for good leagues, but many egos get in the way and it becomes more about the coaches than it does about the kids. For me, the tougher the competition the better I like it because as an athlete you either put up or shut up. As a coach, you will have to check your ego at the door because there will always be someone there to bite you when you are not looking.
I remember when Athens, Ironton, Meigs, Waverly, and Wellston were in the SEOAL along with Gallia, Jackson, and Logan and thought it was a hell of a good league. But, then, foks started to run away and I never understood why.
The expanded SEOAL was doomed from the start. Sure, the idea of a "super conference" of the big schools in the southeastern 25% of the state is a good idea from a competitive standpoint, but no one wants to travel that far to watch a high school sporting event. That's why you have these games that are "dream matchups" but you don't really have many fans in the stands on the visiting side. It takes money to run an athletic program. Money is raised through ticket sales. Schools have to do what they can to get fans in the stands and the only realistic way to do that is to have more local leagues. That's why you see all the SEOAL schools jumping at the chance to exit as soon as a more local league invites them in.
Is it really worth it for Gallia to play Chillicothe every year, for example, if Chillicothe doesn't bring a crowd with them for the game? That is lost revenue....revenue that is desperately needed for those long road trips to away games.
People can bash the TVC all they want, but the bottom line is the TVC has grown and expanded very sensibly over time. All the school districts border each other, with South Gallia the only outlier in the Hocking. This creates backyard rivalries which, when combined with league titles, brings an excitement for fans to travel short distances for road games, which fills the stadiums up, and generates revenue for the schools.
Go ahead and call the TVC weak. The TVC sure does have a sensible business plan - add schools in districts that border our current districts and create a local rivalry that when combined with short travel times, will generate interest in people attending games and filling the stands, thus creating revenue for the sports programs to remain viable. And the TVC sure does have a lot of schools that try to join. Some are admitted and some aren't, but I sure don't see a lot of schools knocking at the door to join the SEOAL. Warren is the only school to ever leave the TVC, and I think many at Warren have realized that was a huge mistake on their part.
If the SEOAL is such a great and mighty league, why is it on the verge of extinction? If those 10 schools were supposed to have "raised the bar" for high school athletics in 2006, why have 4 left already and 2 are on their way out and it's only 2011?
Ok, bored so I thought I’d do some research, below you will find PHS’s away games and times to get to them for the last 2 years as well as for the 2004, and 2003 seasons, according to yahoo maps. It is pretty clear that the travel in the SEOAL isn’t much different for the Trojans.
2010
West 4 min 2 miles
Burg 18 min 9 miles
Chillicothe 59 min 44 miles
Marietta 2 hours 33 min 131 miles
Gallia 1 hour 37min 77 miles
5hours 31min 263 miles, one way, 526 total trip
2009
South Point 45 min 38 miles
Chillicothe 59 min 44 miles
Ironton 36 min 28 miles
Marietta 2 hours 33 min 131 miles
Western Brown 1 hour 22 min 67 miles
6 hours 15 min 308 total miles one way, 616 total trip
This is an average of 5 hours 53 min over a 2 year span or an average of 1 hour 10 min per trip and an average of 574 miles a year. Remember this it will be important later.
2004
West 4 min
Nelsonville York 1hour 54 min
Washington Court House 1 hour 28 min
Burg 18 min
Minford 26 min
4hours 10 min
2003
Chesapeake 52 min
Chillicothe 59 min
Ironton 36 min
Gallia Academy 1 hour 31 min
Columbus St. Charles 1hour 52 min
5 hours 50 min
This averages to 5 hours of travel to games a year, and means with 5 away games our average trip was 1 hour away.
So the SEOAL makes us average 10 minutes farther a game. Pretty clear that travel has never been a problem for Portsmouth in the SEOAL as it is just what we’re used to. I’ll gladly trade those 10 extra minutes for a chance to compete for a title, and for our boys to have a chance to play for league honors.
However let’s take a look at what the travel would be if we got in the SOC.
Burg 18 min
Valley 14 min
West 4 min
Minford 26 min
Northwest 15 min
Waverly 36 min
Assuming our schedule would look like this
Gallia 1 hour 31 min 77 miles
West 4min 2 miles
Burg 18 min 9 miles
Valley 14 min 10 miles
Northwest 15 min 11 miles
Minford 26 min 13 miles
Waverly 36 min 37 miles
Ironton 36 min 28 miles
Chillicothe 59 min 44 miles
Jackson 52 min 38 miles
Total 269 miles one way, 538 round trip and an average of 269 miles a year
5 hour 51 min if we played nothing but away games, or a little over 35 min a trip.
Now let’s think we are going to play 5 games home and 5 games away, so our average for 2 years would be 2 hours and 56 min cutting almost 3 hours off of our travel, for the year.
According to the American School Bus Council (yeah that’s a real thing) a school bus averages 7 miles to the gallon. At near 4 dollars a gallon cost for football travel would average $1076, playing in the SOC. Opposed to the 574 miles or almost double the travel in the SEOAL, resulting in $2296 in travel cost just for football. Now think basketball is probably more than that, and we have boys and girls, as you play everyone twice so you travel to every team in the league each year, baseball and softball also probably the same, along with volleyball. PHS doesn’t travel to many far track meets, and golf doesn’t take busses, and I don’t know if we take busses for tennis or not so they are a wash but with just these sports figured in we spend around (I used the football numbers for this as I think they would be on the low end with only 5 away games) $13776 in travel expenses a year in the SEOAL. In the SOC it would total $6456 a difference of $7464 a year extra spent on travel. Then think about the increased revenue large gates we would get with games against Minford, and Valley, on top of the great crowds we see from Burg and West already. Assume one of those games each year brings in 5000 people at $5 a person, making a $25000 gate, opposed to a $10000 gate brought in by a Warren or Logan game with 2000 people in attendance. An extra $15000 would be a nice boost to any athletic budget. Total that with the money saved from travel, and were at $22464.
That’s ridicules when you break it down that way. However I got an idea, if we truly want into the SOC, lets offer them some of this money we would be saving. Lets sweeten the pot , after all I don’t know of many schools that couldn’t use some extra cash. A deal where we offer a gate revenue sharing program for our home SOC games for we will say 6 years I think might be what would make some of these schools consider letting us in.
Below I put what I assume attendance numbers would be for these games.
Burg 5000
West 5000
Minford 5000
Valley 4000
Waverly 2000 until their program rebounds
Northwest 1000
Totaling 22,000, consider only 3 home games a year resulting in a 11,000 average and $55,000 in revenue per year, and $330000 over 6 years. My suggestion would be to offer them 20% for games resulting in $11,000 a year, and $66,000 over 6 years. Base it on percentage so if we have better gates they get more money , and if gates are worse we don’t lose our shirt. At 20 percent we are still well within the money we are saving not having to travel, we could even possibly go as high as 40% resulting in $22,000 a year and $132,000 total. With 16 schools in the SOC it results in $4,125- $8,250 per school depending on the percentage of the gate sharing. Or it could be divided differently to benefit certain schools more that have traditionally voted against PHS. I have heard that traditionally the smaller schools either vote no, or withstand from voting which is essentially a no vote, because they will not see any benefits from PHS joining because since they would not play them they would not even get an opportunity at a large gate the other schools would.
If you only take the SOC 1 schools, and most likely Northwest because it is understandable why they would vote no, and South Webster as they would not see any benefit from Portsmouth joining either since they don’t play football they would not see larger gates. Divided between those 10 teams the totals for the revenue sharing increase to $6,600-$13,200. This turns out to be a package that would be near impossible for these teams to turn down.
Hate to say this about high school athletics, but it has to have money to operate to, and we all know money talks.
Just think if we were to partner with Ironton or Jackson and present this deal to the SOC, double the money then and let Northwest move down to assure their vote, I think we would have to get in.
I’m happy in the SEOAL, but the SOC makes sense especially if we lose Chilli and Logan. This is a rational way to approach the SOC, that I really think they would consider, it would be hard not to.
Years ago Logan played Nelsonville and New Lexington as two of their first three games with the third game being Columbus DeSales and the gates for those games were huge. We took those games from the schedule and gate receipts dropped for a while. When Lancaster was added to the schedule the gate receipts went back up. To me, what you are saying is exactly right on - it is the rivalries that make the sports interesting. And when these rivalries are close in proximity then gate receipts increase. What was it that took away the rivalries?
Answer. Computer points.
My question is this: do athletes play a sport for computer points OR do they play sports because they enjoy the sport and the competition? It is my theory that computer points is more about administrators, coaches, and fans than it is about the kids. Maybe I am wrong, but remember I said it was a theory. Only considering why I participated I really paid NO attention to state rankings - my concern was how to win a game and how could I improve? Had we been ranked first in the state it would have been no big deal because we still would have had to win in competition - mano el mano.
Trojan, that was an outstanding analysis of the finances involved in all of this! It is clear that local rivalries are about the only thing that can truly finance high school athletic teams.
It seems like the more times the playoffs were expanded to include more teams, the more the game became about computer points. Back when it was next to impossible to make the playoffs, it seems like we had more true local rivalries.
I think it should be all about the local rivalries. I'd rather NY play Logan every year and lose that game more often than not than to play a team NY has no history with that is farther away. I think it would be foolish for either Logan or Chillicothe to turn down an offer to play for the MSL because attendance should be better in the MSL for Logan and Chillicothe than it is in the SEOAL.
If gas prices keep increasing, I think we will see many more local rivalry games because our schools will have no choice but to play them to keep the programs running.
Well, computer points in the SOC wouldn’t be a problem for Portsmouth. As a small D4 border line to going D5 points would be fine. Waverly goes back and forth between 3 and 4, Minford is now 4, West goes between 4 and 5, Northwest is 4, Burg and Valley are both 5. Still plenty of points there, and I think it would give us a better chance actually at points because in my opinion we would be able to pick up more wins in the SOC than in the SEOAL. Yeah there we may have to win 8 games to match the points we would get in from 7 wins in the SEOAL but lots of years it would be easy to get those 8 opposed to 7 in the SEOAL.
As far as rivalries go Burg and West are great rivals of PHS, and always bring a good gate. Waverly has been a decent game in years past with decent attendance although I don’t believe we have played them since 2001, and a playoff game in 2002. Their team will surely recover and become competitive again. Valley although never playing has always had good turnouts for us in the preview game. Northwest we have no history, and I wouldn’t expect for this game to be any different for us than it is for the rest of the SOC most years. The Mohawks just haven’t seemed to be able to get it together on the football field, but have played PHS on the bball court, and baseball diamond. Minford has played PHS 7 times, with PHS winning all games, there have been good turnouts for those games although this is a game that always seemed to mean more to the Falcons than it did to the Trojans.
I’m sure adding PHS to the SOC would only strengthen what has already been some pretty good rivalries. Imagine a PHS Burg game for a SOC title, or PHS West, those are guaranteed sell outs.
Much has been said of the TVC schools not wanting the SEOAL types (Gallipolis, Jackson, etc.) and the same can be said of the SOC (Ironton, Portsmouth, Chilly etc.). The problem is that for many DECADES these schools currently in the TVC and SOC could not compete with the above mentioned schools yearly and a lot of it back then was because of sheer school size and demographics (city, etc.). These schools were the "big boys on the block" per say back then and when they did play the other schools it was usually not a good outcome. The Meigs, Wellston, and N-Y's of the world don't want the same thing happening to them that happened year's ago so they have a bias against the Gallipolis and Jackson's but need to let it go and let them into the TVC. Chilly and Logan need to go north because in a nutshell, it's a hop, skip and jump into the central ohio area for them and all in all they'll face a lot better competition. Portsmouth and Ironton on the other hand have no advantage in school size anymore but still put fear in the hearts of schools in a five county area around them which includes both the OVC and SOC. Let's move into the future and let these schools compete close to home and if you continue to lose to them, then that to me would be at this point because you're still not ready to compete and you can't use the excuse of "they're bigger than us" or "that's a city school" anymore. All the problems of state funding, the economy, travel etc. aren't going to end anytime soon so the local conferences should step up and do the right thing in admitting the "big boys" to the dance. If you get beat you lost to a better opponent, no more - no less. JMO
