Is seeding really needed? IF we advocate for straight up times in track and field then we can do the very same in cross country by running only ONE district meet and have the 8 top teams and 32 top runners advance. It will save in the "games' played with the seeding process - something which I have never accepted as being legitimate - I live with it but I do not have to like it. Not only that just think of the time saved! We have to save time in track and field then I advocate that we do the very same in cross country.
During the 2013 season I have witnessed several good teams - Fairfield stands out for the boys as does Belpre. For the girls Reedsville Eastern, Sheridan, and Athens stood out. Trimble girls were also impressive. But then i saw the seeded results and immediately wondered WTH?
Seeding
Re: Seeding
The Manchester girls kept from winning a district championship because Eastern was ridiculously seeded 3rd.
8 teams advanced....including #14 seed Whiteoak and #15 seed Paint Valley, though PV could've been seeded so low due to not having any bio's, runners, times etc.
8 teams advanced....including #14 seed Whiteoak and #15 seed Paint Valley, though PV could've been seeded so low due to not having any bio's, runners, times etc.
Re: Seeding
Cannot go by times, because not all courses are equal. And some are not 5k, seen too many great times at some courses and same kids lay an egg at every other course.
Re: Seeding
Pol Pot wrote:No Manchester was kept from winning because they got beat!
Lol....absolutely
The top team and the second best team were in 1 race and the 3rd-5th best team were in the other
Here is how the coaches seeded and then a comparison of how the teams did as I took all the times of both races and combined them.
Coaches seedings per Internet voting....
1. Adena (526)
2. Manchester (524)
3. Eastern Meigs (497)
4. South Webster (459)
5. Trimble (452)
6. Fed Hock (443)
7. Huntington (434)
8. Lynchburg Clay (378)
9. Eastern Brown (356)
10. Coal Grove (347)
11. Oak Hill (335)
12. Southeastern (328)
13. Wheelersburg (327)
14. Whiteoak (303)
15. Paint Valley (295)
16. Belpre (287)....no team to seed
17. Eastern Pike (280) no team to seed
18. Ironton (251)
19. Crooksville (224) no team to seed
20. West Union (224) no team to seed
21. Valley (218)
All other teams did not have enough runners to seed.
Seeds that advanced:
#1 Adena
#2 Manchester
#3 Eastern Meigs
#4 South Webster
#5 Trimble
#9 Eastern Brown
#14 Whiteoak
#15 Paint Valley (possibly seeded this low because no team bio's, times or info was entered but any coach worth a darn knew they were in the #7-#10 range.
RESULTS IF COMBINED TO 1 RACE....
1. Eastern Meigs (34)
2. Manchester (72)
3. Trimble (99)
4. Adena (106)
5. South Webster (114)
6. Eastern Brown (161)
7. Whiteoak (181)
8. Wheelersburg (188)
9. Paint Valley (218)
10. Oak Hill (257)
11. Valley (266)
*** 6 schools entered a total of 39 runners but none of them had full teams on the line and only 19 runners showed
Average times....
1. Eastern Meigs 21:19
2. Manchester 22:34
3. Trimble 23:08
4. Adena 23:22
5. South Webster 23:34
6. Eastern Brown 25:16
7. Whiteoak 25:28
8. Paint Valley 26:16
9. Wheelersburg 26:26
10. Oak Hill 28:46
11. Valley 29:12
Re: Seeding
Pol Pot wrote:Cannot go by times, because not all courses are equal. And some are not 5k, seen too many great times at some courses and same kids lay an egg at every other course.
I believe he means just the times of the actual race and heck with the seeding.
Regardless of the seeding.....only Wheelersburg over Paint Valley would have been different.
But as the SE District crown a district champion per race....this did affect and Trimble earned a district title by winning their race. Congrats to Coach Exline and his girls, but Manchester had their #1, #3, #4, #5 and #6 runners beat the respective runners of Trimble.
I agree that just forget the seedings and have 1 big race and if D3 gets 4 teams out or 8 teams out....doesn't matter as those will prove to be the top 8 teams. If that messes up the all-district awards just simply crown the top 2 as each being district champions (basketball, baseball and others often get 2 district champs)....and all-district is just top 32.
Like already said.....the cream did rise and only affected Wheelersburg.....but the long drive to the pre-seeding meeting, entering the team bio's/stats/info and then voting all could've been replaced by taking 0 minutes of time.
Re: Seeding
Why so many no shows?Ironman92 wrote:Pol Pot wrote:No Manchester was kept from winning because they got beat!
Lol....absolutely
The top team and the second best team were in 1 race and the 3rd-5th best team were in the other
Here is how the coaches seeded and then a comparison of how the teams did as I took all the times of both races and combined them.
Coaches seedings per Internet voting....
1. Adena (526)
2. Manchester (524)
3. Eastern Meigs (497)
4. South Webster (459)
5. Trimble (452)
6. Fed Hock (443)
7. Huntington (434)
8. Lynchburg Clay (378)
9. Eastern Brown (356)
10. Coal Grove (347)
11. Oak Hill (335)
12. Southeastern (328)
13. Wheelersburg (327)
14. Whiteoak (303)
15. Paint Valley (295)
16. Belpre (287)....no team to seed
17. Eastern Pike (280) no team to seed
18. Ironton (251)
19. Crooksville (224) no team to seed
20. West Union (224) no team to seed
21. Valley (218)
All other teams did not have enough runners to seed.
Seeds that advanced:
#1 Adena
#2 Manchester
#3 Eastern Meigs
#4 South Webster
#5 Trimble
#9 Eastern Brown
#14 Whiteoak
#15 Paint Valley (possibly seeded this low because no team bio's, times or info was entered but any coach worth a darn knew they were in the #7-#10 range.
RESULTS IF COMBINED TO 1 RACE....
1. Eastern Meigs (34)
2. Manchester (72)
3. Trimble (99)
4. Adena (106)
5. South Webster (114)
6. Eastern Brown (161)
7. Whiteoak (181)
8. Wheelersburg (188)
9. Paint Valley (218)
10. Oak Hill (257)
11. Valley (266)
*** 6 schools entered a total of 39 runners but none of them had full teams on the line and only 19 runners showed
Average times....
1. Eastern Meigs 21:19
2. Manchester 22:34
3. Trimble 23:08
4. Adena 23:22
5. South Webster 23:34
6. Eastern Brown 25:16
7. Whiteoak 25:28
8. Paint Valley 26:16
9. Wheelersburg 26:26
10. Oak Hill 28:46
11. Valley 29:12
Last edited by Pol pot on Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Seeding
Manchester wanted a District title they should have won their race. Next week at Regionals, it's one race no whining, just results.Ironman92 wrote:Pol Pot wrote:Cannot go by times, because not all courses are equal. And some are not 5k, seen too many great times at some courses and same kids lay an egg at every other course.
I believe he means just the times of the actual race and heck with the seeding.
Regardless of the seeding.....only Wheelersburg over Paint Valley would have been different.
But as the SE District crown a district champion per race....this did affect and Trimble earned a district title by winning their race. Congrats to Coach Exline and his girls, but Manchester had their #1, #3, #4, #5 and #6 runners beat the respective runners of Trimble.
I agree that just forget the seedings and have 1 big race and if D3 gets 4 teams out or 8 teams out....doesn't matter as those will prove to be the top 8 teams. If that messes up the all-district awards just simply crown the top 2 as each being district champions (basketball, baseball and others often get 2 district champs)....and all-district is just top 32.
Like already said.....the cream did rise and only affected Wheelersburg.....but the long drive to the pre-seeding meeting, entering the team bio's/stats/info and then voting all could've been replaced by taking 0 minutes of time.
Re: Seeding
Always injuries for some but I just don't know how a team enters 7 and only shows up with 2 or 3Pol Pot wrote:Why so many no shows?Ironman92 wrote:Pol Pot wrote:No Manchester was kept from winning because they got beat!
Lol....absolutely
The top team and the second best team were in 1 race and the 3rd-5th best team were in the other
Here is how the coaches seeded and then a comparison of how the teams did as I took all the times of both races and combined them.
Coaches seedings per Internet voting....
1. Adena (526)
2. Manchester (524)
3. Eastern Meigs (497)
4. South Webster (459)
5. Trimble (452)
6. Fed Hock (443)
7. Huntington (434)
8. Lynchburg Clay (378)
9. Eastern Brown (356)
10. Coal Grove (347)
11. Oak Hill (335)
12. Southeastern (328)
13. Wheelersburg (327)
14. Whiteoak (303)
15. Paint Valley (295)
16. Belpre (287)....no team to seed
17. Eastern Pike (280) no team to seed
18. Ironton (251)
19. Crooksville (224) no team to seed
20. West Union (224) no team to seed
21. Valley (218)
All other teams did not have enough runners to seed.
Seeds that advanced:
#1 Adena
#2 Manchester
#3 Eastern Meigs
#4 South Webster
#5 Trimble
#9 Eastern Brown
#14 Whiteoak
#15 Paint Valley (possibly seeded this low because no team bio's, times or info was entered but any coach worth a darn knew they were in the #7-#10 range.
RESULTS IF COMBINED TO 1 RACE....
1. Eastern Meigs (34)
2. Manchester (72)
3. Trimble (99)
4. Adena (106)
5. South Webster (114)
6. Eastern Brown (161)
7. Whiteoak (181)
8. Wheelersburg (188)
9. Paint Valley (218)
10. Oak Hill (257)
11. Valley (266)
*** 6 schools entered a total of 39 runners but none of them had full teams on the line and only 19 runners showed
Average times....
1. Eastern Meigs 21:19
2. Manchester 22:34
3. Trimble 23:08
4. Adena 23:22
5. South Webster 23:34
6. Eastern Brown 25:16
7. Whiteoak 25:28
8. Paint Valley 26:16
9. Wheelersburg 26:26
10. Oak Hill 28:46
11. Valley 29:12
Re: Seeding
I believe the almighty MileSplit had
1. Eastern M
2. South Webster
3. Trimble
4. Manchester
5. Adena
6. Fed Hock
7. Huntington
8. Lynchburg
9. Paint Valley
10. Coal Grove
11. Oak Hill
12. Whiteoak
13. West Union
14. Belpre
15. Eastern Brown
Accurate....
1. Eastern M
2. South Webster
3. Trimble
4. Manchester
5. Adena
6. Fed Hock
7. Huntington
8. Lynchburg
9. Paint Valley
10. Coal Grove
11. Oak Hill
12. Whiteoak
13. West Union
14. Belpre
15. Eastern Brown
Accurate....
Re: Seeding
D2
District 1 Girls Top 4 seeds all advanced in that exact order and that 5th and 6th teams were accurate also.
District 2 Girls Top 4 seeds advanced 3 and 4 seeds swapped places 5th and 6th exact.
D2 Boys District 1 Top 4 seeds Advance Piketon boys had a great race seeds pretty close to place
District 2 1,2,3,5 advance in a great race Vinton County boys jump the 4 seed Fairland to advance.
I think the seeding system did work, all coaches need to get on board. If teams do not have enough for a team then they should be placed last. All systems have some kind of problems and will not be perfect.
In the end in just comes down to going out and performing.
District 1 Girls Top 4 seeds all advanced in that exact order and that 5th and 6th teams were accurate also.
District 2 Girls Top 4 seeds advanced 3 and 4 seeds swapped places 5th and 6th exact.
D2 Boys District 1 Top 4 seeds Advance Piketon boys had a great race seeds pretty close to place
District 2 1,2,3,5 advance in a great race Vinton County boys jump the 4 seed Fairland to advance.
I think the seeding system did work, all coaches need to get on board. If teams do not have enough for a team then they should be placed last. All systems have some kind of problems and will not be perfect.
In the end in just comes down to going out and performing.
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Flatulence
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Re: Seeding
Nice to see some discussion on here. I question the seeding process because of courses. In basketball, wrestling, and baseball I can understand seeding because everyone competes on the very same "courses" so to speak - the court, the mat, and the field are equal. In cross country we have no "equal" courses. Also, the name of our sport is 'cross country' and this sport was NOT developed for just track runners. In all of my years I have witnessed great cross country runners and that did NOT equate to the track and vice versa. Cross country is to be a different sport - just like road racing is considered a different sport. Yet we have coaches who think they can equalize the sport - and I strongly and vociferously disagree.
Here is an example - many years ago at Logan we hosted cross country meets at the Nazarene camp. I was told that the courses was long by those with GPS. We wheeled the course umpteen times and it always came up from 80 to 90 yards short. People complained about the hill - just too tough - just too difficult. We had complete control of ingress and egress, the course was always well marked, it was always well manicured and it was always rolled. We walked the course with a tractor with a front end loader filled with dirt and filled in any holes we found. The runners passed by the fans three times and one could watch the entire race and only have to walk a quarter of a mile. But, "the hill was just too tough." AND, I had some who wanted me to shorten the course so that our athletes did not have to run as far as they would have to at the regional meet! We spent HOURS on the hill making it easier to run. We brought in a bulldozer and cleaned it out and cut it down - to no avail. My point is this - we will NEVER satisfy those who believe everything is unfair and that someone is out to destroy their team.
Now back to seeding - this is only my second year at Nelsonville-York and the first year we have had a meeting for seeding. The cutthroat attitude that i witnessed really bothered me. The way some disregard other schools really bothered me. The purposeful down seeding of a couple of schools really bothered me. After reading the entries and having seen many of these schools run it bothered me tremendously that Reedsville Eastern was seeded 3rd. Then, when I looked at D-II seeding I was appalled by what was done to some schools in that division.
Our district is widespread - from Marietta to South Point to Eastern Brown and Whiteoak to Westfall to New Lexington. We have travel issues. We have long distances to travel and in many places one cannot get there from here! We have courses that we must work with. We have short courses and flat courses and hilly courses and actual cross country courses. We have some places who charge an arm and a leg for their invitationals. We have people complain that we charge too much and other places that charge nothing at all to get in and watch a race.
Then to have coaches seed and not know anything about it and not care about it it leads to the seeding we had at this year's district meet. I am going to say this and I guarantee you it will tick off many - but until we get each and every coach on the very same page in this seeding it will never be equal. And, until we get coaches egos out of the way, again, it will never be equal.
Therefore I satnd by my thoughts that we run ONE race and advance the top eight teams and top 32 runners.
Here is an example - many years ago at Logan we hosted cross country meets at the Nazarene camp. I was told that the courses was long by those with GPS. We wheeled the course umpteen times and it always came up from 80 to 90 yards short. People complained about the hill - just too tough - just too difficult. We had complete control of ingress and egress, the course was always well marked, it was always well manicured and it was always rolled. We walked the course with a tractor with a front end loader filled with dirt and filled in any holes we found. The runners passed by the fans three times and one could watch the entire race and only have to walk a quarter of a mile. But, "the hill was just too tough." AND, I had some who wanted me to shorten the course so that our athletes did not have to run as far as they would have to at the regional meet! We spent HOURS on the hill making it easier to run. We brought in a bulldozer and cleaned it out and cut it down - to no avail. My point is this - we will NEVER satisfy those who believe everything is unfair and that someone is out to destroy their team.
Now back to seeding - this is only my second year at Nelsonville-York and the first year we have had a meeting for seeding. The cutthroat attitude that i witnessed really bothered me. The way some disregard other schools really bothered me. The purposeful down seeding of a couple of schools really bothered me. After reading the entries and having seen many of these schools run it bothered me tremendously that Reedsville Eastern was seeded 3rd. Then, when I looked at D-II seeding I was appalled by what was done to some schools in that division.
Our district is widespread - from Marietta to South Point to Eastern Brown and Whiteoak to Westfall to New Lexington. We have travel issues. We have long distances to travel and in many places one cannot get there from here! We have courses that we must work with. We have short courses and flat courses and hilly courses and actual cross country courses. We have some places who charge an arm and a leg for their invitationals. We have people complain that we charge too much and other places that charge nothing at all to get in and watch a race.
Then to have coaches seed and not know anything about it and not care about it it leads to the seeding we had at this year's district meet. I am going to say this and I guarantee you it will tick off many - but until we get each and every coach on the very same page in this seeding it will never be equal. And, until we get coaches egos out of the way, again, it will never be equal.
Therefore I satnd by my thoughts that we run ONE race and advance the top eight teams and top 32 runners.
Re: Seeding
About 5 hours of wasted time and $15 in gas per coach on the process. The meal was good though....enjoyed that.Pol Pot wrote:According to the above, the seeds went as the race was ran...What's the problem?
Simply no possible issues of fairness using only 1 race.
Personally though I just have issues when 1/4 of the coaches do not vote or take the time to fill out info and bio on their teams/runners. Then another 1/4 simply give zero effort to "learn about each team" they are voting on. It's just not that hard to do but it is hard to believe they don't care.