well saidchicken_coop wrote:Breathing causes cancer...
Thoughts on Field Turf
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anderson2012
- JV Team
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Re: Thoughts on Field Turf
Haha it's funny because tread is on tires and that's what we were talking about *walking cane enters stage left, pulls me away as the curtain closes*Ontheriver wrote:I am shocked that this tread has not been pulled.
I asked a question last week about Jackson Alumni Field , is the field safe now? do to a news article that was on news channel 13 that a parent was concerned and challenging the school administration about how the field was not safe.
IT WAS A QUESTION AND THE TREAD PULLED.
Where are you MODERATOR pull this tread there was a question asked.
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SouthGallia#1 in bball
- Riding the Bench
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- Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:22 pm
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anderson2012
- JV Team
- Posts: 359
- Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:46 pm
Re: Thoughts on Field Turf
I don't know. Is your zodiac symbol a crab?FrenchtownFan wrote:I played on turf. Do I have Cancer now?
Re: Thoughts on Field Turf
Why can't people have an intelligent debate and discussion on this matter? It seems to be the normal thing amongst turf managers, schools, etc. But when it gets brought up here all the keyboard warriors turn it into some big joke.
The first thing people always want to comment on are the cancer causing ingredients, but until they have been proven, I'm not sure we will know until many years down the road.
My main focus is the playability, heat, maintenance, cost up front and cost to replace. If you break this down into 10-20 year periods you will find that turf tends to come out on the high side of things, especially having to replace.
Just as I have said before, the heat that comes off the turf is enough of a trouble. During hot spring, summer, fall months, you could see the temps on field rise to over 120-130 degrees. Is this a safety issues? I would think so.
Taken from an article:
"When the tournament kicked off Saturday, the temperature of the playing surface was reportedly 120 degrees, despite the fact that it was a pleasant 75 degrees that day in Edmonton. That’s because artificial turf, a combination of rubber and plastic, gets a lot hotter than natural grass. Natural grass, on average, stays 20-30 degrees cooler than its artificial counterpart."
"The turf temperature on Saturday was just two degrees below what’s considered “unsafe for sustained use by trained athletes,†according to a study cited by the Las Vegas Sun."
"This will be especially true when high turf temperatures could cause heat radiation to tire players more quickly than natural grass would. A 2006 survey found that 74 percent of NFL players felt artificial turf was responsible for more fatigue than grass. The turf will be the medical team’s primary concern in the tournament, Dr. Bojan Žorić told Sports Illustrated."
And a photo to prove my point about the injuries that it causes.
The first thing people always want to comment on are the cancer causing ingredients, but until they have been proven, I'm not sure we will know until many years down the road.
My main focus is the playability, heat, maintenance, cost up front and cost to replace. If you break this down into 10-20 year periods you will find that turf tends to come out on the high side of things, especially having to replace.
Just as I have said before, the heat that comes off the turf is enough of a trouble. During hot spring, summer, fall months, you could see the temps on field rise to over 120-130 degrees. Is this a safety issues? I would think so.
Taken from an article:
"When the tournament kicked off Saturday, the temperature of the playing surface was reportedly 120 degrees, despite the fact that it was a pleasant 75 degrees that day in Edmonton. That’s because artificial turf, a combination of rubber and plastic, gets a lot hotter than natural grass. Natural grass, on average, stays 20-30 degrees cooler than its artificial counterpart."
"The turf temperature on Saturday was just two degrees below what’s considered “unsafe for sustained use by trained athletes,†according to a study cited by the Las Vegas Sun."
"This will be especially true when high turf temperatures could cause heat radiation to tire players more quickly than natural grass would. A 2006 survey found that 74 percent of NFL players felt artificial turf was responsible for more fatigue than grass. The turf will be the medical team’s primary concern in the tournament, Dr. Bojan Žorić told Sports Illustrated."
And a photo to prove my point about the injuries that it causes.
Re: Thoughts on Field Turf
Base preparation:
Natural Grass $150,000
FieldTurf $320,000
Materials:
Natural Grass $2.75 per sq. ft. = $220,000
FieldTurf $4.75 per sq. ft. = $380,000
Maintenance:
Natural Grass $20,000 x 10 years = $200,000
FieldTurf $5,000 x 10 years = $50,000
Total:
Natural Grass $570,000
FieldTurf $750,000
Scheduling Possibilities:
Natural Grass 25 hours x 25 weeks x 10 years = 6,250 hours
FieldTurf 68 hours x 44 weeks x 10 years = 29,920 hours
Average Cost Per Hour of Use:
Natural Grass $91.20
FieldTurf $25.07
This is all based on a turf field being used for 10 years. If you are able to go beyond that time, the cost advantage sways even more in the advantage of turf being the better option.
Natural Grass $150,000
FieldTurf $320,000
Materials:
Natural Grass $2.75 per sq. ft. = $220,000
FieldTurf $4.75 per sq. ft. = $380,000
Maintenance:
Natural Grass $20,000 x 10 years = $200,000
FieldTurf $5,000 x 10 years = $50,000
Total:
Natural Grass $570,000
FieldTurf $750,000
Scheduling Possibilities:
Natural Grass 25 hours x 25 weeks x 10 years = 6,250 hours
FieldTurf 68 hours x 44 weeks x 10 years = 29,920 hours
Average Cost Per Hour of Use:
Natural Grass $91.20
FieldTurf $25.07
This is all based on a turf field being used for 10 years. If you are able to go beyond that time, the cost advantage sways even more in the advantage of turf being the better option.
Re: Thoughts on Field Turf
Natural Grass is not $2.75 a sq/ft though, you're looking at around .25cents a square foot.
Now take that 10 years and figure in the cost to replace it. Then 10 years later to replace it again.
How do you figure 25 hours of use a week though? If you are saying to stay off of it from heavy use then I would disagree. A good grass such as (Latitude 36) Bermuda overseeded with Perenial Rye can take high traffic as well all spring and summer long. The Rye will die out during the heat of summer and bermuda will green up for Football/Soccer season.
If you are just pulling these numbers from FieldTurf's website, then you may want to get the real information as FieldTurf isn't going to post something that would not appeal to their product.
So lets use real numbers, because we all know that it doesn't take $200,000 to maintain ANY field or an entire Athletic Field Complex at a HS.
So now,
Base Prep - $150,000
Material - $.25 cents per sq ft. x 80,000 sq/ft = $20,000
Maintenance - $25,000-$30,000 (includes, herbicides, mowing, aeration 3x a year, fertilizer, field prep, over seeding, watering and misc) This also include man hour cost.
Total - $195,000
Scheduling Possibilities - Natural grass - 68 hours x 44 weeks x 10 years = 29,920 hours (the same as turf) you have the same amount of hours for football and soccer games (remember, if you maintain the grass thin spots etc get sodded every year (this is figured into the maintenance cost above)
Average Cost Per Hour of Use
Natural Grass $6.50
Field Turf $25.07
But how is that possible? Because FieldTurf doesn't want you to know that Natural Grass is cheaper!
Now - replace the turf after 10 years (additional $380,000)
So now double the grass cost, oh wait you don't have to. You just figure it in as maintenance.
So now your out another $380,000 for material at a minimum. But you have to pay to have it removed and installed again.
Now take that 10 years and figure in the cost to replace it. Then 10 years later to replace it again.
How do you figure 25 hours of use a week though? If you are saying to stay off of it from heavy use then I would disagree. A good grass such as (Latitude 36) Bermuda overseeded with Perenial Rye can take high traffic as well all spring and summer long. The Rye will die out during the heat of summer and bermuda will green up for Football/Soccer season.
If you are just pulling these numbers from FieldTurf's website, then you may want to get the real information as FieldTurf isn't going to post something that would not appeal to their product.
So lets use real numbers, because we all know that it doesn't take $200,000 to maintain ANY field or an entire Athletic Field Complex at a HS.
So now,
Base Prep - $150,000
Material - $.25 cents per sq ft. x 80,000 sq/ft = $20,000
Maintenance - $25,000-$30,000 (includes, herbicides, mowing, aeration 3x a year, fertilizer, field prep, over seeding, watering and misc) This also include man hour cost.
Total - $195,000
Scheduling Possibilities - Natural grass - 68 hours x 44 weeks x 10 years = 29,920 hours (the same as turf) you have the same amount of hours for football and soccer games (remember, if you maintain the grass thin spots etc get sodded every year (this is figured into the maintenance cost above)
Average Cost Per Hour of Use
Natural Grass $6.50
Field Turf $25.07
But how is that possible? Because FieldTurf doesn't want you to know that Natural Grass is cheaper!
Now - replace the turf after 10 years (additional $380,000)
So now double the grass cost, oh wait you don't have to. You just figure it in as maintenance.
So now your out another $380,000 for material at a minimum. But you have to pay to have it removed and installed again.
Re: Thoughts on Field Turf
"Scheduling Possibilities - Natural grass - 68 hours x 44 weeks x 10 years = 29,920 hours (the same as turf) you have the same amount of hours for football and soccer games (remember, if you maintain the grass thin spots etc get sodded every year (this is figured into the maintenance cost above)"
nope ... If it rains heavy ... or is abnormally dry, teams will move practice or cut practice to reduce problems. I have never seen a game/practice moved off a turf field. I have seen games moved to turf because the home field was unusable.
You state that "if you maintain the grass" ... either teams aren't maintaining OR this is false. I have seen too many grass fields that are useless in weeks 8, 9 and 10. Not every year, but with a high enough occurrence that I am concerned. I would expect you to reply "it's a maintenance issue" ... I'm not believing you.
nope ... If it rains heavy ... or is abnormally dry, teams will move practice or cut practice to reduce problems. I have never seen a game/practice moved off a turf field. I have seen games moved to turf because the home field was unusable.
You state that "if you maintain the grass" ... either teams aren't maintaining OR this is false. I have seen too many grass fields that are useless in weeks 8, 9 and 10. Not every year, but with a high enough occurrence that I am concerned. I would expect you to reply "it's a maintenance issue" ... I'm not believing you.
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doubleplay643
- S
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- Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:40 pm
Re: Thoughts on Field Turf
Notice the single asterisk at the bottom of the chart (assume replacement at 8 years and 16 years) and the math is calculated based on those assumptions.JS7_22 wrote:Why can't people have an intelligent debate and discussion on this matter?
But if you replace the turf after 13 years instead of 8 (as in the case of Alumni Stadium since that was one of the examples above) then those numbers will skew the results toward a "favorable" turf scenario.
So you basically can create any argument or debate to skew it one way or another...what is the saying...there are liars, darned liars and statisticians?
Each surface, grass or turf, has its pros and cons obviously. The biggest con I see for turf is the initial investment which is usually done after a campaign by a school's support group or a group of individuals is "free" or "discounted", but the replacement is not "free". In the case of Jackson I believe it was the Sideliners club led by Jim Humphreys and Ernie Strawser (JCS Treasurer at the time) put together a consortium of Holzer, Oak Hill Banks (WesBanco now) and a lot of other smaller donations and got the project initiated. I think Chillicothe had a group led by the Hernstein family and others to initiate their field which is very nice. So that momentum gets the original project installed but then it is up to the school to budget every year for the replacement...and those are significant dollars that require being set aside. My understanding is Jackson (as an example) has that money set aside but now is in the phase of determining when it is best to pull the trigger to do the replacement. How long can they stretch the initial installation to maximize the investment, and everyone of course has opinions on that. But we (Jackson) have managed to go way beyond the asterisked 8-years and I think Valley made it 13 years or so as well before replacing theirs.
The only institutions I think would replace after 8-years is a University or someone with a little deeper pockets than a typical SEO School District. If you change the 8-years to 13-years and run through costs and the math on all the events it can be used for the numbers present a "favorable" turf analysis.
Just my two cents...not a proponent one way or the other really.