HS Playoffs in WV Threatened By Litigation

[Zahns Corner]

Litigation over school classification assignments and methodology is threatening to derail West Virginia's high school football playoffs.

In a rush to resolve the issue of competitive balance, WV 's Secondary School Activity Commission came up with a convoluted system that took into consideration not only enrollment numbers, but community type, such as urban, rural, and combinations thereof. Some small schools got moved up, some big schools moved down. The result is chaos and uncertainty due to litigation. Adults wanting to take their ball and go home if they don't get their way. It has gotten so out of hand that the girls volleyball championships were cancelled for some classes

There is a host of threads on @edforshey WV Tailgate Central high school sport site that are entertaining and enlightening.
Could such a snafu ever hit Ohio?


https://www.wvtailgatecentral.com/forum ... ?board=1.0

https://wvmetronews.com/2024/11/11/char ... comodated/

[formerfcfan]

Could such a snafu ever hit Ohio?

No. Because the OHSAA (as a governing body) actually does have good operating principles when it comes to rules, regulations, and how changes get implemented. I'm speaking strictly as to the organization -- clear communication, well-executed plans, consistency of the tournament guidelines, oh... and not letting schools appeal their way out of established tournament divisions left and right at the 11th hour before week 0/week 1. The qualification model for our football playoffs is pretty straight-forward, while WV's qualification model is needlessly complicated for a state that has 1/4th (or whatever the fraction is) the amount of schools we do. We don't have this bizarre "strength of schedule" factor that SSAC brilliance thought of, and that's either the root of the current issue or just another symptom of how bad WV is when it comes to running their HS athletics.

Ohio's framework works through communication, established precedent, and the entire pretext that participation in OHSAA postseason events is voluntary. Aka "don't like it? Then don't play."

This isn't to say the OHSAA isn't perfect, because it's not. It is however to say that we're not going to find ourselves like WV. OHSAA's handbook on these things is pretty bullet-proof. Changes aren't made on a whim. They're voted on well in advance by the schools. I also really can't think of any situation where a school would seek an injunction, in this state, when it comes to playoffs.

--
There are plenty of OHSAA things that are unpopular, that probably ought to change. The channels for that change is through the schools and not the courts. That's a good thing in the bigger picture.

[Zahns Corner]

Could such a snafu ever hit Ohio?

No. Because the OHSAA (as a governing body) actually does have good operating principles when it comes to rules, regulations, and how changes get implemented. I'm speaking strictly as to the organization -- clear communication, well-executed plans, consistency of the tournament guidelines, oh... and not letting schools appeal their way out of established tournament divisions left and right at the 11th hour before week 0/week 1. The qualification model for our football playoffs is pretty straight-forward, while WV's qualification model is needlessly complicated for a state that has 1/4th (or whatever the fraction is) the amount of schools we do. We don't have this bizarre "strength of schedule" factor that SSAC brilliance thought of, and that's either the root of the current issue or just another symptom of how bad WV is when it comes to running their HS athletics.

Ohio's framework works through communication, established precedent, and the entire pretext that participation in OHSAA postseason events is voluntary. Aka "don't like it? Then don't play."

This isn't to say the OHSAA isn't perfect, because it's not. It is however to say that we're not going to find ourselves like WV. OHSAA's handbook on these things is pretty bullet-proof. Changes aren't made on a whim. They're voted on well in advance by the schools. I also really can't think of any situation where a school would seek an injunction, in this state, when it comes to playoffs.

--
There are plenty of OHSAA things that are unpopular, that probably ought to change. The channels for that change is through the schools and not the courts. That's a good thing in the bigger picture.

Thanks for the insight!.

[selonmc]

Could such a snafu ever hit Ohio?

No. Because the OHSAA (as a governing body) actually does have good operating principles when it comes to rules, regulations, and how changes get implemented. I'm speaking strictly as to the organization -- clear communication, well-executed plans, consistency of the tournament guidelines, oh... and not letting schools appeal their way out of established tournament divisions left and right at the 11th hour before week 0/week 1. The qualification model for our football playoffs is pretty straight-forward, while WV's qualification model is needlessly complicated for a state that has 1/4th (or whatever the fraction is) the amount of schools we do. We don't have this bizarre "strength of schedule" factor that SSAC brilliance thought of, and that's either the root of the current issue or just another symptom of how bad WV is when it comes to running their HS athletics.

Ohio's framework works through communication, established precedent, and the entire pretext that participation in OHSAA postseason events is voluntary. Aka "don't like it? Then don't play."

This isn't to say the OHSAA isn't perfect, because it's not. It is however to say that we're not going to find ourselves like WV. OHSAA's handbook on these things is pretty bullet-proof. Changes aren't made on a whim. They're voted on well in advance by the schools. I also really can't think of any situation where a school would seek an injunction, in this state, when it comes to playoffs.

--
There are plenty of OHSAA things that are unpopular, that probably ought to change. The channels for that change is through the schools and not the courts. That's a good thing in the bigger picture.

I don’t know if you are saying Ohio doesn’t have a strength of schedule calculation or that we do but it isn’t complicated. Because the Harbin system most definitely rewards a strong SoS.

[formerfcfan]

Could such a snafu ever hit Ohio?

No. Because the OHSAA (as a governing body) actually does have good operating principles when it comes to rules, regulations, and how changes get implemented. I'm speaking strictly as to the organization -- clear communication, well-executed plans, consistency of the tournament guidelines, oh... and not letting schools appeal their way out of established tournament divisions left and right at the 11th hour before week 0/week 1. The qualification model for our football playoffs is pretty straight-forward, while WV's qualification model is needlessly complicated for a state that has 1/4th (or whatever the fraction is) the amount of schools we do. We don't have this bizarre "strength of schedule" factor that SSAC brilliance thought of, and that's either the root of the current issue or just another symptom of how bad WV is when it comes to running their HS athletics.

Ohio's framework works through communication, established precedent, and the entire pretext that participation in OHSAA postseason events is voluntary. Aka "don't like it? Then don't play."

This isn't to say the OHSAA isn't perfect, because it's not. It is however to say that we're not going to find ourselves like WV. OHSAA's handbook on these things is pretty bullet-proof. Changes aren't made on a whim. They're voted on well in advance by the schools. I also really can't think of any situation where a school would seek an injunction, in this state, when it comes to playoffs.

--
There are plenty of OHSAA things that are unpopular, that probably ought to change. The channels for that change is through the schools and not the courts. That's a good thing in the bigger picture.

I don’t know if you are saying Ohio doesn’t have a strength of schedule calculation or that we do but it isn’t complicated. Because the Harbin system most definitely rewards a strong SoS.

Ours’ in Ohio isn’t complicated; whether or not the Harbin system rewards a strong SoS is a separate discussion.

WV’s way of trying to award ‘Bonus’ points is needlessly complicated. Cameron lost to Edison, but whether Edison beat Indian Creek or not would be a difference in SOS for Cameron for rating purposes.

[enigmaax]

No. Because the OHSAA (as a governing body) actually does have good operating principles when it comes to rules, regulations, and how changes get implemented. I'm speaking strictly as to the organization -- clear communication, well-executed plans, consistency of the tournament guidelines, oh... and not letting schools appeal their way out of established tournament divisions left and right at the 11th hour before week 0/week 1. The qualification model for our football playoffs is pretty straight-forward, while WV's qualification model is needlessly complicated for a state that has 1/4th (or whatever the fraction is) the amount of schools we do. We don't have this bizarre "strength of schedule" factor that SSAC brilliance thought of, and that's either the root of the current issue or just another symptom of how bad WV is when it comes to running their HS athletics.

Ohio's framework works through communication, established precedent, and the entire pretext that participation in OHSAA postseason events is voluntary. Aka "don't like it? Then don't play."

This isn't to say the OHSAA isn't perfect, because it's not. It is however to say that we're not going to find ourselves like WV. OHSAA's handbook on these things is pretty bullet-proof. Changes aren't made on a whim. They're voted on well in advance by the schools. I also really can't think of any situation where a school would seek an injunction, in this state, when it comes to playoffs.

--
There are plenty of OHSAA things that are unpopular, that probably ought to change. The channels for that change is through the schools and not the courts. That's a good thing in the bigger picture.

I don’t know if you are saying Ohio doesn’t have a strength of schedule calculation or that we do but it isn’t complicated. Because the Harbin system most definitely rewards a strong SoS.

Ours’ in Ohio isn’t complicated; whether or not the Harbin system rewards a strong SoS is a separate discussion.

WV’s way of trying to award ‘Bonus’ points is needlessly complicated. Cameron lost to Edison, but whether Edison beat Indian Creek or not would be a difference in SOS for Cameron for rating purposes.

Ohio rewards strength of wins. WV was attempting to reward strength of schedule. It isn’t complicated; the idea to not penalize teams for scheduling tough losses vs scheduling a bunch of easy wins.

[formerfcfan]

I don’t know if you are saying Ohio doesn’t have a strength of schedule calculation or that we do but it isn’t complicated. Because the Harbin system most definitely rewards a strong SoS.

Ours’ in Ohio isn’t complicated; whether or not the Harbin system rewards a strong SoS is a separate discussion.

WV’s way of trying to award ‘Bonus’ points is needlessly complicated. Cameron lost to Edison, but whether Edison beat Indian Creek or not would be a difference in SOS for Cameron for rating purposes.

Ohio rewards strength of wins. WV was attempting to reward strength of schedule. It isn’t complicated; the idea to not penalize teams for scheduling tough losses vs scheduling a bunch of easy wins.

Polite disagree on the merits of their SOS, but to your point “attempting” — attempting is a noble action that by itself wouldn’t be a big deal.

But incorporating that attempt along with the poor decision to let a cadre of schools appeal their classification, and granting those re-classifying appeals, so close to the season ended up resulting in a big chunk of this mess unfolding.

Whether Ohio’s method is better than WV’s, who knows. Ohio’s framework for HS athletics and the strength, consistency along with organizational sense that guides decision-making is why we don’t have the prospect of injunctions screwing up tournaments. Whereas in WV, that isn’t the case.

[portsmouth_98]

I saw some discussion on this on WSAZ facebook this morning. I guess the big problem was that they implemented classification changes to schools right before the season started and it messed up some schools points rating. Teams that had scheduled up were suddenly looking at a schedule that had 3 or 4 smaller division schools in August and no time to scramble and get new games.

[Jeaux Burreaux]

The issue is 2 weeks before the season started when everyone had schedules booked they moved roughly 17 teams down from the largest classification AAAA down to AAA they also moved a number of schools from AAA down to AA and some even from AA to A. This also made a major goof in how you get rewarded for playing your own class or up a class for instance. So teams in AAAA are more or less encouraged to play their own class. Meanwhile some of the teams they were scheduled to play dropped down from AAAA to AAA thus hurting them. Also the state volleyball tournament has been put on hold so many believe football may too.

[Jeaux Burreaux]

AAA delayed TBD when it will start all other classifications will play

[RollCoal]

WV started this mess when they allowed students to transfer schools with no penalty of sitting out X amount of games or the school being slapped with a competitive balance number. A lot of the schools have suffered due to the “star athletes “ all moving to the same school. So now you have stacked teams playing teams that aren’t quite as competitive.
I remember last year there were a few instances of games winding up 70-0 and even 80 plus to 0. I’m not sure if litigation is the solution, but they definitely have some issues.

[enigmaax]

Ours’ in Ohio isn’t complicated; whether or not the Harbin system rewards a strong SoS is a separate discussion.

WV’s way of trying to award ‘Bonus’ points is needlessly complicated. Cameron lost to Edison, but whether Edison beat Indian Creek or not would be a difference in SOS for Cameron for rating purposes.

Ohio rewards strength of wins. WV was attempting to reward strength of schedule. It isn’t complicated; the idea to not penalize teams for scheduling tough losses vs scheduling a bunch of easy wins.

Polite disagree on the merits of their SOS, but to your point “attempting” — attempting is a noble action that by itself wouldn’t be a big deal.

But incorporating that attempt along with the poor decision to let a cadre of schools appeal their classification, and granting those re-classifying appeals, so close to the season ended up resulting in a big chunk of this mess unfolding.

Whether Ohio’s method is better than WV’s, who knows. Ohio’s framework for HS athletics and the strength, consistency along with organizational sense that guides decision-making is why we don’t have the prospect of injunctions screwing up tournaments. Whereas in WV, that isn’t the case.

Agree that they completely botched the implementation - multiple times on multiple levels. They do have a serious organizational problem that overshadows even the good decisions they make (though I couldn’t name one of those off the top of my head).

[Jeaux Burreaux]

Official within the last hour the ENTIRE state playoff for WV has been postponed until the litigations are done. What a mess for them

[Pol pot]

WV started this mess when they allowed students to transfer schools with no penalty of sitting out X amount of games or the school being slapped with a competitive balance number. A lot of the schools have suffered due to the “star athletes “ all moving to the same school. So now you have stacked teams playing teams that aren’t quite as competitive.
I remember last year there were a few instances of games winding up 70-0 and even 80 plus to 0. I’m not sure if litigation is the solution, but they definitely have some issues.

That was largely the legislature’s doing. WV Athletic Association, was and is powerless for sanctions on transfers. You think it’s a mistake, I think it was a mistake. But groups like the Heritage Foundation rank WV #14 in the country in Education, largely based on this freedom of school choice.

[GAHS7481]

As a Wahama fan this is just complete screw up, and the kids are the ones suffering. It's in the hands of the Wv Supreme Court now. They have ordered all parties to have papers filed by noon Monday November 18th

[bone1978]

And all this time I was told that men playing women's sports was ruining everything. Now I'm finding out that it's the same old things causing issues: greed and jealousy.

It's in the hands of lawyers now, and they aren't quick to make decisions. My guess is that we will see playoffs again NEXT November in West Virginia. Eventually this season will rot on the vine and it will be time for basketball.

[GAHS7481]

And all this time I was told that men playing women's sports was ruining everything. Now I'm finding out that it's the same old things causing issues: greed and jealousy.

It's in the hands of lawyers now, and they aren't quick to make decisions. My guess is that we will see playoffs again NEXT November in West Virginia. Eventually this season will rot on the vine and it will be time for basketball.

I was told they could have a decision Monday evening after all documents are filed by noon Monday. Fir the kids sake, let's hope so

[FIDO]

....and the kids playing are the ones suffering the most.

[surfsider]

It'd be great for the kids and their families if a Supreme Court decision is final today so perhaps by 6 pm it is full go for playoffs.

The first round needs played this week for crissakes.

[GAHS7481]

Wv Supreme Court rules in favor of the SSAC and throws out all the injuction. Looks like Wv will have playoff games. This ruling just happened and more details will be released shortly