Triple option teams in Ohio

[10mike]

mtswngrvsg,

When JHS had Humphreys they ran the traditional midline Jill scheme that Farquar spoke of. They originally ran it from the formation that I believe you know as East/West. During Hump's senior year they ran more veer from the flexbone look.

Farquar,

I didn't see Wellston on film but I do know a guy who coached there that year. I'm pretty sure that they were running the Demeo style triple rather than the true veer from the gun.

[Charles Farquar]

10 Mike your right, thats what they did. I once went down to the University of Charleston Spring practice and watched them run it. Set back to the playside was slightly back and to side of QB and took an outside jab step and then came in closer to the QB in the gun. Slot back came in motion as the pitch back. Or they ran it with motion man as the dive read.

[10mike]

His FB is a B gap to B gap runner. I prefer the traditional veer path for my FB/HB. Demeo has his RB attack downhill at the playside A gap on ISV...the RB then cuts depending on what happens up front.

I have concerns about his HB's path because I like the traditional veer path for the HB where you get everything sealed off inside and the HB runs to daylight. It seems to me that the HB would have a greater chance of getting caught in traffic when cutting back into the teeth of the defense.

I am completely against running midline and veer from the gun. My reasoning is very simple. Gun option coaches will tell you that having the mesh happen 3-5 yards away from the LOS benefits the QB in regards to making his read. That theory completely contradicts everything that veer/option football stands for. They will go on to tell you that having the mesh happen away from the LOS allows the QB more time to make his read because he has more time to wait for the read key to commit. That is a nice thought, but the depth of the mesh also allows the defender to simply sit and wait for the QB to make his decision (play soft in the hole).

I'm certainly not knocking on coaches who run the midline and veer from the gun as I'm sure there are many who do it with great success. It just seems like common sense to me in understanding that by being under center the dive hits at lighting fast speed which is one of the main pro's of running the veer.

Tony Demeo has experienced great success running his version of the "gun triple". But his play is really just a modified version of the zone read option play that WVU has made famous. I was in attendance at Demeo's clinic this past spring. At the end of the clinic a couple of his assistant coaches actually discussed how they are leaning toward going back under center, at least some of the time because they realize the benefits of being under center. I have no idea if they did so this season but I would be interested in finding out.

[MTSWNGRVSG]

This topic has gone dead. Just have a quesiton-did Demeo start out as a wishbone coach?

[10mike]

This topic has gone dead. Just have a quesiton-did Demeo start out as a wishbone coach?

It seems pretty difficult to keep a discussion of this nature going for very long on here.

DeMeo has 20 years service as head coach at Iona, Mercyhurst, Washburn and UC. I'm not sure what he ran at Iona or Mercyhurst but I do know that he was a flexbone guy when he was at Washburn.

[MTSWNGRVSG]

I think he is the guy that I was thinking about.

[boogerred]

the reason it is hard to keep topics like this going is that most people on here don't know much about football.

I mean if you get real technical about how to run things, most people will give you the "deer in the headlights" look.

[farmer]

This topic has been informative just not many run it. I was told by a very succesfull coach that he only had one QB that could run it correctly. The other QB could not run itexactly like it needed to be. It was not that the QB's were not tough,smart or athletic enough to run it. It takes a special QB that can make the fakes, reads, pitches and run with the ball. Oh maybe even throw a pass.
You do see many colleges and even some Pro teams using an option near the goal line to score when they are not an option team. I know I have enjoyed reading these posts.

[Charles Farquar]

If you face 4-4, 4-3 and Shade 50 fronts the midline can be
a good addition to your offense whether you are an option team or not. I have even seen it effective against 5-3 teams with the 5 technique tackle coming all the way down in to take the dive.It can be ran out of a number of different offensive formations , even those with just the fullback in the backfield, as long as you have a halfback or tightend to act as the outside blocker on the linebacker. It doesnt matter if your an I team a Wing T team or whatever you can incorporate it. It is also considered to involve less practice time and be an easier read for the QB. Sometimes even with a misread a good running QB can out run a 3 technique thats not very agile, have seen it done. I used to think that you needed an audible system to go opposite the 2i technique but since have decided its much easier to give a gap call block down on the 2i, and flash fake the fullback, letting him lead the QB and turn the thing into a QB off tackle play. It really can make up for weaknesses in your offensive line as all the tackle has to do basically is fan block out, or if the defensive end slices in drive him down inside. Itg gives good angles on the linebacker as he is looking at the dive and can be ear holed by the outside tracker. A straight 50 defense with a good noseguard can give it problems but it ends up being a give most of the time against that defense anyway. You should at least have a double option going outside or incorporate unbalanced formations to get the 50 to move down and present you with a 3 technique. I think you have to be willing to devote time to reps no matter what the offense is including the option. As far as your QB getting hurt, the type of kid you would have would determine whether you run the offense or not. A 6 foot 6 inch pocket passer would be wasted in such an offense, but if you have the short stop or point guard type kid with quick feet he can make you a good one. I would venture to say more QBs have been hurt being blind sided by a blitz in the pocket than by a crashing defensive end. You can teach your Qb how to handle the crasher. The other thing to understand , you should be running an offense and not just plays. You need answers to problems the defense presents. A Crashing defensive end gives up containment and is vulnerable to outside plays.

[MTSWNGRVSG]

Have never coached the midline but like the idea of not getting strung out and that if makes up for lesser talent in the O-Line. Would like to learn more about it even when I do not coach anymore. Is always interesting to learn more about the game.

[farmer]

When you mentioned having a 6 foot 6 QB would not be the best running the option that was like when Dennis Dixon went down for Oregon this year and was first replaced by a much taller and not as mobile QB in Leaf. The offense was not the same and had a difficult time adjusting.

[OVCfan32]

oh yeah midline can be a show stopper. . .. . .
we never ran it much at the peake. . but when we noticed teams trying to play our line man up with a 5 front. . and zone out the skill positions the old 34 midline would work wonders. . .most of the time the guard who was skipping the dtackle and going to the linebacker never even had a chance cause the linebacker was bailing sooo fast to chase us backs in motion . . . .

qb 20 yards later with the safety on his ankles every time

[10mike]

Lets send this old dog back to the top to see if we can generate any discussion. What offensive systems out there can give a team a chance to win even when they have little talent?

Split Back Veer (Houston, Carson Newman)
Flexbone Triple (Navy, Georgia Southern)
Wing-T (Deleware)
Double Wing (Wyatt, Markham)

Am I leaving anything out? Just about any other system that I can think of would require a certain kind of talent in order to be successful. In the Pro-I or Wishbone you really need some "mashers" up front. Without them it is going to be tough to run your Iso plays and slam it off tackle. In the "Spread" passing game you must have some talented skill players (WR's, QB). Without these athletes it will be tough to simply "out-athlete" other teams.

[Orange and Brown]

Woody used to run the triple option from both his Inside Belly Series and Outside Belly series option from the straight T or RobusT as he called or the wing T formation.

Jack Leyngl chose the Houston Veer as his offense to rebuild Marshall because it let him develop a running game and still have practice time for a passing game. The whole problem with the TO is you need so much time for the backfield/OLine to practice the precise locations and timing you have to execute so the pitches and viewing angles of the QB are working right.

Ohio has seen it's versions of triple option: from the T formation, the wishbone and flexbone arrangements, and Veer from the pro set, and as the Cinnicinatti Spread used by the UC bearcats when they had Gregg Cook who ran and passed a high powered offense in the mid 60's.

The problem is to make a TO work you have to sell the pass.

Thats not true. The idea of the triple option is to catch the defense off balence with the run. Stretch the feild and find the open hole. The key to option football is to have a great defense. Zone blocking was borne from the triple option. With all of the fancy offenses they have today it is easy to over look the triple option. It has proven to be one of the most effective offenses in the game. Over the next few years we will see less and less of it, but like all good things it will make a come back.

[ddavis]

I have never run the triple option much but always wanted to. I always felt you should spend more than half of your offensive practice time on the option if you run it. We always spent more time on defense than most so I didn't feel I could invest that kind of time to the option. My first experience with the midline was when Green ran it against us a few years back and kicked our butts. We couldn't stop it. I stole the play and when Brett Enz was my quarterback we used it throughout the season with great success. As you guys have said it depends if you have the quarterback. When Herb Conley was at Symmes Valley he ran a lot of option from the wishbone and Rusty has continued to run some depending on his personnel. In my opinion as more and more teams go to the spread and more and more defenses are structured to stop the spread. Power football and option football should be more effective.

[OVCfan32]

10mike. . .i don't agree with you on the spread talk. . . .

its not skill positions that determine that. . . .I remember the cowboys started running it back in the day because. . .well. . their front 5 was "good enough". . . so they just spread the rest out. . .
I think that offense is based on having 5 up front. . . . .
offense like the double wing was always all about have four good athletes. . they couldn't stop 3 tailbacks and an qb all with the chance to run and it worked

[10mike]

First of all, the term "spread" is used very loosely and is a very vague term to use when describing an offense. That is why I stated that I was talking about a Spread Passing attack.

You wrote:

"its not skill positions that determine that"

Are you implying that you do not need talented skill players to run a spread passing attack?

[piratepride05]

I have heard about Arrowhead, they are a great SBV team. I know that one type of offense is not going to dominate a group of games. I am simply trying to find out about all teams who run the triple in Ohio and any other state for that matter.

The quarterback for Arrowhead was from Wheelersburg!

[OVCfan32]

No i'm just saying I think the line is more important to a spread (other than qb) than the skill positions. . . .
its highschool people are open

[lhsfan97]

I have spent the better part of a decade watching coach Carpenter at Lancaster rebuild the Gales program using the wing-t offense. The first few years were tough but as the program grew so did the number's in the win column. The past 5 years have been very good compiling a record of 42-14, 4 conference championships, and playoff appearences 5 striaght years.

I mention all of this because even with the success Lancaster has seen with the wing-t, coach Carpenter knows he has the quarterback in 6'1" 235 lbs. Ryan Cheek and sophomore to be Nolan Flowers at 6'3" 200lbs to run the option for at least the next three seasons. And that is what you will see out of Lancaster this coming season.