WK 2 (1-0) Wheelersburg @ (0-1) South Point

[drrabbit]

The Ironton Tribune must be giving about a 15 yard penalty for the kick off that went out of bounds. I never know how to count that since the ball is not marched off. If they had to rekick it would only be a five yard penalty. I still can only find five penalties for Wheelersburg though and three for South Point (one of which was declined.)

Both papers have Jordan with a nine yard reception and I had it as a lateral pitch. (Third quarter, with about 2:00 to 3:00 minutes remaining--it was the series that ended with the fumble). My understanding was that laterals count in rushing yards not passing. Was I mis-informed? It is clearly a lateral in the pictures. Or could there have been another pass I don't have down that he caught for nine yards? I just don't have him with any other nine yard gain in that game.

Personally, I would loved to have seen 24 first downs for Wheelersburg (per the Tribune numbers) in the game but with runs of 40, 61 and 88 yards, they covered a lot of ground without having first downs. I went back and counted a second time to be sure and I only have 11 for the Pirates so I will change that.

[Burg_Grad_77]

Burg Grad 77 now who's closest to the first down total . I was there and you weren't , Please don't question a eye witness with something you read.I thought I was being conservative.

Good for you. Give yourself a cookie. I'm so happy for you .

I was just going by the paper which is usually correct or called in by the home team and you would think they would know how many 1st downs they had. What makes you think that drrabbit is correct? She could make mistakes too.

[drrabbit]

Yes, I do make mistakes. For instance, I did forget to write down one play for Wheelersburg. I counted Wheelersburg's first downs as 12 the first time when they were really 11. And I gave South Point a positive five yards gain on what was a penalty and shorted Wheelersburg about four yards on another play (blame that one on the scoreboard). But on the other hand, I could sit here and type out for you who made every one of those first downs for each team and how long the gain was for. And I have counted the first downs more than twice so they should be pretty accurate.

AND I have an advantage of being able to sit down a day later and figure the stats carefully where a daily reporter has to throw them together as the game is progressing or to do it in a short time to meet a deadline.

Unfortunately, newspapers are often off somewhere in the numbers. None of these stats are official. The best way to get official stats is from game films where you can replay it a couple of times to grade what happens.

Some people/reporters keep first down stats by simply putting a mark in a column each time a team gets one. It is easy to forget a mark entirely, forget you have put a mark and put a second for the same FD or put one team's mark in the other's column.

Jottings is one reporter who always have kept very nice stats. I always liked comparing mine in basketball and they are usually quite close. But he has been doing this for 50 years. He is not some stringer covering his second game or some volunteer student or dad arm twisted into doing this and calling it into the paper.

Just remember that even as a hobbyist I have more experience now than the entire PDT sports staff put together. Stringers for the Dispatch or Tribune may or may not be any more experience than the PDT guys.

[burgtown2008]

BG77, you made a mistake and stuck your foot in your mouth, let it go before you screw up again!

[hammer911335]

drrabbit,

No, I do it free of charge as well. I was told when I first started doing games three years ago that on long plays past ten yards; they should get a first down for each ten yards the play goes. It sounds weird, but that is what I was told and that how I keep it. That is where I came up with the 24 first downs, and I just looked back through each play. If what I said above is correct, WB should have had four more FD's . This maybe incorrect, and I apologize that I made an error if this is the case. Also, from my vantage point, the pass to Jordan looked like it was thrown forward. Those types of plays are always hard to tell because if it is even a half a yard in front of the quarterback; it is a forward pass. So, it can all depend on what vantage point you have of the play. We all make mistakes, and I commend you for doing it free as well. I feel that these kids deserve to have someone there to cover how hard they work. Also, in some cases, it is hard for the coaches to get the time to call these in; as some coaches go straight to the film room to breakdown the game. I know last year when SP played at WB, I went into the WB locker room and the coaching staff was already breaking down the game. I am not trying to be a jerk or upset anyone, and no I am not as experienced as some; but I do try very hard to make sure everything is correct before I write it. If it is not and I make a mistake, I will learn from it the next time. I will also definitely also ask to get a clarification on the first down issue to make sure I get this in correct next time.

[seasick80]

Burgtown2008, WTH are you talkin about? Get off it. BG77 does a great job in posting games from work for others that dont get a chance to see the games, if he gets radio broadcasts. If not, he listens to local radio to get any updates from FANS at the game. Your posts hurt that, so zip it! Also, I cant find a post by BG77 that makes you so mad. ((foot in mouth over first downs) maybe you should remove the foot!) Maybe you should look back thru the posts like I did. Such a TRIVIAL deal. Get over it! He heard 12 instead of 21. Easy mistake by radio guys.

[drrabbit]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to single out anyone in particular but between two newspapers, there are reasons why the stats differ--sometimes wildly and you have proven my point nicely.

I have to say, that is the first time I have heard counting first downs that way. I have always counted the 'moving of the chains.' And that only happened for Wheelersburg 11 times that night. Do you mean that you give multiple first down on a single play? Like eight FDs on the 88-yard run? Now I will have to look up that defination from a more official source. I have certainly seen papers that will count a touchdown as a first down but never have noticed giving multiple first downs on a single play.

The underhanded pitch was caught about 4-5 yards behind where the quarterback was standing. Of course I had pictures that I could review to make sure after it came up. Nothing like 1100 pictures on ~100 plays. LOL.

[drrabbit]

Both of us were wrong. Wheelersburg officially should have had 14 first downs--11 actual first downs plus 3 for the touchdowns runs of over 10 yards (14, 40, 88) but not one for the 3-yard touchdown run. South Point should have been credited with 22 first downs--21 first downs plus the 35-yard pass for a TD but not the 5 or 8 yard runs for the TD.

SECTION 1—FIRST DOWNS
Article 1. A first down shall be recorded whenever the yardsticks are ordered
forward and/or when a touchdown is scored from scrimmage (rushing or passing)
within a series of downs starting from 10 yards or more from the goal line,
or when a dead-ball foul results in an automatic first down (see Section 1, Article
6).
A.R. 1. A first down when made (and other statistical data) is recorded
for all plays in progress when the half (or game) ends.
A.R. 2. A first down is recorded when the offensive team is awarded
a first down because of penalty, even though the yardsticks might be moved
backward.
Article 2. When a team satisfies the requirement for a first down (rushing or
passing) and, after the whistle has blown to end the play, is awarded
penalty
yardage of sufficient distance for an additional first down, two first downs are
recorded, one rushing (or passing) and one by penalty (see Section 1, Article 6
and Section 14, Articles 1-4).
A.R. 1. Team A’s ball on Team B’s 40. Adams rushes for 20 yards to Team
B’s 20 and Team B is penalized 10 yards from that point to Team B’s 10.
Credit Adams with a rush of 20 yards. Charge Team B with a penalty of 10
yards. Credit Team A with a first down by rushing and with a first down by
penalty.
A.R. 2. Team A’s ball on Team B’s 20. Adams rushes for 10 yards to Team
B’s 10 and Team B is penalized five yards from that point to Team B’s five.
Credit Adams with a rush of 10 yards. Charge Team B with a penalty of five
yards. Credit Team A with a first down by rushing. Do not credit Team A with
a first down by penalty.
Article 3. A first down is not recorded on any runback (i.e., kickoff, punt, intercepted
pass), regardless of the distance.
Article 4. A first down is not recorded when a resultant loss of team possession
occurs on a scrimmage
A.R. Team A’s ball on Team B’s 40, second and five. Adams rushes for 10
yards, fumbles and Team B recovers on its 30. Credit Adams with a rush of 10
yards, but do not credit Team A with a first down by rushing. Charge Team
A with a fumble lost.
Article 5. If the resultant recovery by Team A of a fumble on a scrimmage
play provides the yardage necessary for a first down, the first down is credited
to the category initiating the action.
A.R. Team A’s ball on Team B’s 40, second and five. Adams rushes for 10
yards, fumbles and Allen recovers on Team B’s 30. Credit Adams with a rush
of 10 yards. Credit Team A with a first down by rushing and with a fumble
not lost.
Article 6. A first down is recorded when a dead-ball foul results in a first
down.
A.R. 1. Team A’s ball on Team B’s eight, second and goal. Adams advances
to the four. Team B is charged with a dead-ball foul at the four. The ball
is moved to the two. Credit Adams with a rush of four yards. Credit Team
A with a first down by penalty and charge Team B with a penalty of two
yards.
A.R. 2. After a kick return (or an interception) by Team A, Team B commits
a dead-ball foul at Team A’s 30, which results in an automatic first
down. Team B is penalized to Team A’s 45. Credit Team A with a first down
by penalty and charge Team B with a penalty of 15 yards.
A.R. 3. Team A’s ball, first and 10 at Team B’s 14. Team B commits a deadball
personal foul. Team B is penalized half the distance to the goal line with
first down and goal to gain. The penalty for a Team B personal foul requires
a first down and 10 yards to gain. Credit Team A with a first down by penalty
and charge Team B with a penalty of seven yards.
Article 7. On the last play of the second or fourth quarter, if, in the scorer’s
judgment, the offensive team advanced the ball to a first down, credit should
be given whether or not the officials so signify.

[hammer911335]

drrabbit,

Wow, I like the way that exampls are broken out. I tried to find this stuff, but did not have any luck. I did ask Jimmy earlier this week, and I did completely misunderstood. At least now I know what the correct interpretation of the concept is, and I will get it correct from now on. Looking back at the play by play stats that I keep, you are correct. The way that Jimmy explained it to me, the team gets a first down if a rusher goes over ten yards (e.g. 88 or 40 yard runs). The other is of course if a series results in a gain of more than ten yards. Thanks for the examples, and now I am ready for tomorrow night. I would encourage everyone to go to http://www.irontontribune.com late Friday night or early Saturday morning for scores and briefs of as many games as possible. Look for the Friday night football updates link. This is not just for this area, as I believe Jimmy will get as many state scores as possible. Thanks again drrabbit.

[hammer911335]

One thing I forgot in my last post. There was a question on the penalty yards on the kickoff out of bounds. I had that as a 13 yard penalty, as the kick went out at the 22 and SP got the ball at the 35. Hope that helps.

[BlindWhiteHat]

As an official, I don't know much about stats, but I think I can help on the kickoff question. If the offending team is forced to rekick, it is a 5 yard penalty then rekick from the 35 yard line. If the ball goes out of bounds and the team accepts the ball at the OOB spot or 25 yards from the free kick line, the signal is to decline the penalty. At that point, there should be no penalty yardage assessed to the stats. Hope that helps.

[drrabbit]

Hammer--it was one of those things that I had been meaning to look up anyway.

And Blindwhitehat, I never give any yardage on the kickoff penalty unless there is a rekick--that I figured out awhile ago. But I have counted the flag in my penalty total. So when the recieving team takes it at the 35, then you are saying that the penalty is declined so there should be no penalty added to that total at all? Interesting.

Someday when I have a lot of time (Ha Ha), I need to read that whole stats book though it will be slightly different than high school simply because it is written for NCAA football.