Should Private Schools be put in there own Divisions

[loyaldevilfan]

I have often wondered how people feal about this issue.. I hear mixed reactions. To me it doesn't seem fair to public schools who can't recruit to play private schools who can, but I also feal that if you wanna be the best you have to beat the best....I guess that is what makes it so special to win state...I hope this doesn't break any forum rules but I have read alot of threads on here and there seem to be some smart people on here when it comes to football so I am interested in hearing their thoughts....

[Yossarian]

Yes, in all sports . Too many competitive advantages being private. One of the biggest is the ability to control enrollment. When I was in cshool we fluctuated between big school classification and down a division depending on what year it was. One year we were one of the smallest schools in the state based on enrollment, the next year one of the largest in the lower division. We were very competitive in the lower division but not in the larger. Enrollment is critical in other sports as well, such as American Legion Baseball. You can compete but it's tough to do it consistantly because of the huge number differences in athletes to choose from.

[superblue]

LDF. I do not believe I am one of the smart people you are talking about, but here is my take... Been to state finals the last 10 years, Some years you see your share of private schools & other times you don't..... Private schools have some advantages, but on the other hand so do some public schools.... If you do seperate them, do you have 2 state Champions for each division??? I say keep them together and let them play.......

[Fun in the Sun]

I don't know how many states have two winners per divisions , but Tennessee has been doing it for years .

[hawkeyepierce]

LDF. I do not believe I am one of the smart people you are talking about, but here is my take... Been to state finals the last 10 years, Some years you see your share of private schools & other times you don't..... Private schools have some advantages, but on the other hand so do some public schools.... If you do seperate them, do you have 2 state Champions for each division??? I say keep them together and let them play.......

I did a study on this just three years ago, and you will be surprised at the numbers. And remember the numbers don't lie.

I went back to 1972 and just looked at the State Champions in football only, in those Championship games the private or selective enrollment schools have 88 state championships, conversely, public schools also have 88 championships. Now here is the rub. Selective Enrollment schools only make up 22% of the total OHSAA sanctioned schools. That is correct boys and girls there are three times as many public schools as private, but yet they have the same number of championships, in one sport where you might think that there would be more parody.

Is it fair? Absolutely not. Will anything be done about it? No, not when the previous and current Commissioner are devout Catholics.

[california kid]

I do think private schools have an advantage over public schools because of the whole recruting thing. Don't some states seperate private and public state tournements?

[boilermaker]

Simply put ,YES

[Blacksunshine]

Are the Columbus Crusaders a private school? I have seen them scheduled the past couple of years but their games don't count for what ever reasons. Someone help me with this one.

[Panther85]

I think it is foolish to believe that private schools are the only ones recruiting; especially in counties with multiple school districts. Besides, what do you do with schools such as Notre Dame and Ironton St. Joe? Do you think they should have to travel several hours to find competition? Private schools with small enrollment are almost always at a disadvantage. More parents than not choose to send their kids where they feel they are afforded the best opportunities, scholastic and athletically, rather than the kids being recruited. I think you'll find that the best "recruiters" to these schools are the parents who truly believe in the school system not necessarily the athletics.

[d-5]

Are the Columbus Crusaders a private school? I have seen them scheduled the past couple of years but their games don't count for what ever reasons. Someone help me with this one.

http://www.columbuscrusaders.org/ They are not a member school of OHSAA

[loyaldevilfan]

LDF. I do not believe I am one of the smart people you are talking about, but here is my take... Been to state finals the last 10 years, Some years you see your share of private schools & other times you don't..... Private schools have some advantages, but on the other hand so do some public schools.... If you do seperate them, do you have 2 state Champions for each division??? I say keep them together and let them play.......

yeah see I was thinking that as well...it would almost be a slap in the face to both champs huh... it would never resolve who was better....

[loyaldevilfan]

Getting some good feedback on both sides of the debate....it is to bad you couldn't find a happy medium....I mean someone said earlier that smaller private schools would be at a disadvantage because they would have to travel hours just to play....But let me ask you this? why couldn't they keep their schedules and play public schools in regular season and get the same points as they do now but at the end of the year when it is time for the playoffs the public, private schools have their own. You have to travel forever during the playoffs anyway....I don't think there will ever be a happy medium...I think there is a solution, but what I have no idea....

[loganlocos]

I say, with 100% confidence, ABSOLUTELY NOT.

It would cheapen a championship and punish the private schools who "play by the rules," which many of them do. Let me make a few rebuttals to some of you:

To me it doesn't seem fair to public schools who can't recruit to play private schools who can

First off, NO ONE "Can" recruit, and I think few schools do, private or public. This is an easy excuse to make, but rarely is true.

Public schools benefit from "transfers" as much as anyone else. You have to look no further than our own area to see this.

But more importantly, I'll look at two D1 PUBLIC powers:

Dublin Coffman: After Brady Quinn, a local boy, the next two quarterbacks at Coffman magically transfered into the district. Jack Rafferty came from I believe St. Charles to play his senior year for the Shamrocks, and the next quarterback was Josh Febus, who came from Mount Vernon maybe? And last year, their QB Chris Stout was a freshman at Pickerington North in 2004. I know because I watched Logan beat him at the freshman level. All three of those guys are playing at the next level.

Massillon: Notorious for receiving player from all around Stark County and beyond. Justin Zwick and Devoe Torrence are two recent examples who played or were committed to Ohio State. That does include the dozen or so other kids I'm not familiar with because I don't live up there.

I did a study on this just three years ago, and you will be surprised at the numbers. And remember the numbers don't lie.

I went back to 1972 and just looked at the State Champions in football only, in those Championship games the private or selective enrollment schools have 88 state championships, conversely, public schools also have 88 championships. Now here is the rub. Selective Enrollment schools only make up 22% of the total OHSAA sanctioned schools. That is correct boys and girls there are three times as many public schools as private, but yet they have the same number of championships, in one sport where you might think that there would be more parody.

Is it fair? Absolutely not. Will anything be done about it? No, not when the previous and current Commissioner are devout Catholics.

Numbers may not lie, but they also don't always tell the truth.

Did your study take into account other factors? Such as the fact that many private schools are in densely populated areas that have more youth leagues/middle schools/etc therefore much more talent to share with several schools in the area?

Did the study take into account the fact that many private schools have HUGE booster organizations often funded by tax-exempt churches? These schools often have wealthy alumni who give back. This leads to the ability to hire more and better coaches, improve facilities (without concern for how it will look when passing a levy), and buy better equipment?

Did the study take into account the socio-economic factors that go into schools that win championships? Most kids who go to private schools have more money and come from a lower percentage of single family households. It has been proven in education that kids from a higher socio-economic background with two parent households have a higher success rate. Isn't it safe to assume that the same could carry over to sports? After all, coaching is just teaching outside of the classroom.

And back to education, these same private schools perform at a higher standard in the classroom than their public counterparts. There is nothing "sinister" at work to improve their performance in the classroom. Why does it make sense for them to have to be "sinister" in the athletic arena?

From a statistical standpoint, your results are only as good as your variables.

"Garbage in, Garbage out" - and look at title numbers without taking into account the other variables tells us nothing.



Remember, that while many students/families do choose a private school for athletics, they are still a minority. Most of the students who attend private schools do so for religious reasons, for quality of education, for (perceived) security, for college applications, and other extra curricular activities.

[Mouth's Better Half]

Ironton St. Joe and Ports. Notre Dame are a whole different situation than schools in Cincinnati and Columbus, where recruiting is rampant. Private schools should be in a different division , especially the larger ones. It is not fair for public schools to have to compete with ones that are not only larger but have a base of so many students to gain from.

[loganlocos]

where recruiting is rampant.

That's pure speculation.

"Recruiting" is rampant in public schools.

"recruiting" is an easy excuse for fans to make themselves feel better. In reality, it goes on no more at private schools than it does public.

[madpolecat]

Recruiting is rampant in the public schools, too.

You wouldn't believe some of the people who do some recruiting...

[madpolecat]

gahs4ever wrote:

"perceived higher academic standards."

Yuk-Yuk-Yuk!!

[Mouth's Better Half]

The private Catholic school in Ironton does give a student a better education. Good teachers and lower classroom size are something that public schools just can't compete with.If your child is a good student they will do their homework and get a good education almost anywhere. If your student is disabled or has a learning disability the Catholic schools are not equipped to meet the needs of your student.If you can afford private school tuition and a private tutor , consider yourself blessed. Your student can go anywhere.

[1987chieftains]

WELL PUT LL AND GHS. THOSE 2 POST WHERE THE MOST INTERESTING POSTS I'VE READ ON HERE IN A WHILE. GOOD STUFF!

[loyaldevilfan]

I shouldn't have used the term recruit...That seems to be a sticky term no matter what kind of school you attend...But don't private schools have the ability to offer scholarships to athletes to help bring them to their schools. Because if that is the case what parent wouldn't want to give their child a private school education for free and the sports are an added bonus. I would tell you a number I would like to see and that would be the ratio of actual enrollment in the schools to those who participate in the athletics. Now on the defense of some of the public schools my cousin informed me that alot of the test scores in the columbus area are on the rise and the public schools are starting to get very competitive with the public schools on an academic stand point.