Big school versus small school debate

[93Bulldog]

It cracks me up when people say the number of boys in your school makes a huge difference and that a team in a higher division should beat a lower division team.

For those who whined about a division III team beating/playing, lets say, a division V team ... Check out the disparity at the D1 level.

PICKERINGTON CENTRAL HIGH SCHOOL - 653 boys
ST. XAVIER HIGH SCHOOL - 1,164 boys

Yea, that is a difference of 511 boys between the two schools ... Yet Pickeringotn beat St. X last night 14-7 in the state semi-finals.

511 boys - that is just crazy ... and the team Pickerington faces in the final has 1,121 boys.

The difference between one of the biggest schools (Logan) in southeastern Ohio and the smallest (Trimble) is only 371 boys ... Logan has 478 and Trimble has 107.

I mean, where is the logic? Folks complained about Athens (297 boys) playing Nelsonville-York (151 boys), which is only a difference of 146 boys ... I sure am glad those same folks aren't from Pickerington, they would be going nuts right now ... lol ... The Tigers are staring at a 500+ difference in boys at the two schools.

[superblue]

So if I apply your logic we need to do away with the 6 divisions and all schools would compete in one state tournament??? Maybe this year Athens would have played Mentor in the first round??? Not many people share your view on number of students not being a key factor in divisional play.

[The Wizard]

So if I apply your logic we need to do away with the 6 divisions and all schools would compete in one state tournament??? Maybe this year Athens would have played Mentor in the first round??? Not many people share your view on number of students not being a key factor in divisional play.

Not many people in seo because there are no d1 schools. You all get to play in divisions where the number difference is not that big. If you were in a small d1 school you would be complaining.
I for one wish there were no divisions. One champ. Why do we need six champs? Just so little Johnny has a chance at a trophy or what? Same in basketball.

[Ironman92]

The teams in D3 and below have several players playing both ways....and when you get to the playoffs the numbers playing both ways gets smaller and smaller. The large difference between the big D1 and the smaller D1 is not that important because both have plenty to play both ways. An extra 50 boys at a school would be a huge asset to a D6-D3 school....and 50 boys to a D1 program and probably just improves a position or two.

[93Bulldog]

So if I apply your logic we need to do away with the 6 divisions and all schools would compete in one state tournament??? Maybe this year Athens would have played Mentor in the first round??? Not many people share your view on number of students not being a key factor in divisional play.

I just don't think it makes 'A BIG DIFFERENCE.'

It doesn't matter if you have 400 boys or 200 boys ... What matters is how many 'FOOTBALL PLAYERS' you have in your school ... Its the reason why I would take a team like Ironton over a team like Marietta any day of the week ... One is Division IV, the other is a division II school.

[Ironman92]

And you have to disperse those males into all other categories: band, no activity, golf, soccer and XC.

But in the end the average D5 will beat the average D6 team most of the time....and it's true all the way up.

[superblue]

"It doesn't matter if you have 400 boys or 200 boys ... What matters is how many 'FOOTBALL PLAYERS' you have in your school ... " You may be correct 93..... But the law of averages says the more boys you have the more football players you will have....

[93Bulldog]

I wish that were true superblue ... But that is not the case at Athens ... Subtract our massive soccer program that has as many athletes as the football team, subtract out golf players, our cross country runners and the Bulldogs are a Division IV team.

Even more boys in the school doesn't = more 'football players.'

2011 rosters:

Nelsonville-York (D5) had 57 players
Athens (D3) had 50 players
Logan (D2) had 50 players

or look at this notion - even more players doesn't carry a whole lot of water ... Trimble (D6) had only 36 players - but I still take them over Vinton County (D3), who had 45 players on its roster.

(Law of averages in an entire state and when your talking about hundreds of schools/teams - you are right about ... When were talking southeastern Ohio football - the 'law' changes and things aren't exactly the same)

[Steely Dan]

So if I apply your logic we need to do away with the 6 divisions and all schools would compete in one state tournament??? Maybe this year Athens would have played Mentor in the first round??? Not many people share your view on number of students not being a key factor in divisional play.

I just don't think it makes 'A BIG DIFFERENCE.'

It doesn't matter if you have 400 boys or 200 boys ... What matters is how many 'FOOTBALL PLAYERS' you have in your school ... Its the reason why I would take a team like Ironton over a team like Marietta any day of the week ... One is Division IV, the other is a division II school.

And I'd take Marion Local, Delphos St. Johns, St. Henry's, Coldwater, or Versailles over Athens, Jackson, Logan, Marietta, etc. etc.

In SEO, it doesn't make a big difference, let's face it. Get out of SE Ohio then you are talking a huge difference. What was it, five or six years ago, there was a double header playoff game in Peden Stadium in the pouring down rain (yes, I was there sitting in that lousy weather on a cold November afternoon) and watched Gallipolis get beat up pretty good by one of the Columbus schools. The other game was two more big schools (escapes me who right now) from outside the area. Watching those teams beat the daylights out of each other, I sat there and thought, there is no way that the SE Ohio teams can compete against schools with this kind of TALENT POOL. The larger the student body population, the more likely you are to have stud athletes. Called law of large numbers, you learn about that in college statistics 101.

Now, would I take Marion Local, Delphos St. Johns, St. Henry's, Coldwater, or Versailles over Picktown, St. X, Elder, Mooney, Hilliard Davidson, Dublin Coffman, etc. etc. Um, no. Alot of people just cannot come to grips with reality that as a general rule, SE Ohio HS football is inferior to the remainder of the state.

Size matters, and numbers matter. Use whatever convoluted logic you want, generally, you've got to have a large pool of bodies to pick from to get the # of true football players you need to field a great team of one-way players. Just my humble opinion, and no one has to agree with me. Until someone can come up with a compelling argument otherwise, I'll stick with "the bigger, the better", especially outside of SE Ohio. :122246

[noreply66]

It cracks me up when people say the number of boys in your school makes a huge difference and that a team in a higher division should beat a lower division team.

For those who whined about a division III team beating/playing, lets say, a division V team ... Check out the disparity at the D1 level.

PICKERINGTON CENTRAL HIGH SCHOOL - 653 boys
ST. XAVIER HIGH SCHOOL - 1,164 boys

Yea, that is a difference of 511 boys between the two schools ... Yet Pickeringotn beat St. X last night 14-7 in the state semi-finals.

511 boys - that is just crazy ... and the team Pickerington faces in the final has 1,121 boys.

The difference between one of the biggest schools (Logan) in southeastern Ohio and the smallest (Trimble) is only 371 boys ... Logan has 478 and Trimble has 107.

I mean, where is the logic? Folks complained about Athens (297 boys) playing Nelsonville-York (151 boys), which is only a difference of 146 boys ... I sure am glad those same folks aren't from Pickerington, they would be going nuts right now ... lol ... The Tigers are staring at a 500+ difference in boys at the two schools.

They need a X-Large Div.--lol

[Izladoom]

i feel that we actually need a 7th division. d1 needs split in to 2 divisions. i know a lot of people want them to put the private schools in there own division because of all of the recruiting that goes on. i agree that the seo teams are not as strong as the others but i think it has a lot to do with money. the schools down here dont have the money to hire a quality coaching staff or get all the equipment that the others have. i went to valley and i always thought we had a very nice facilities until i started dating a girl from columbus and started going to some of those games. it was like night and day. i really wish that valley would have won that last game i think we would have put up a better fight than wynford did.

[FANOSPORTS]

It cracks me up when people say the number of boys in your school makes a huge difference and that a team in a higher division should beat a lower division team.

For those who whined about a division III team beating/playing, lets say, a division V team ... Check out the disparity at the D1 level.

PICKERINGTON CENTRAL HIGH SCHOOL - 653 boys
ST. XAVIER HIGH SCHOOL - 1,164 boys

Yea, that is a difference of 511 boys between the two schools ... Yet Pickeringotn beat St. X last night 14-7 in the state semi-finals.

511 boys - that is just crazy ... and the team Pickerington faces in the final has 1,121 boys.

The difference between one of the biggest schools (Logan) in southeastern Ohio and the smallest (Trimble) is only 371 boys ... Logan has 478 and Trimble has 107.

I mean, where is the logic? Folks complained about Athens (297 boys) playing Nelsonville-York (151 boys), which is only a difference of 146 boys ... I sure am glad those same folks aren't from Pickerington, they would be going nuts right now ... lol ... The Tigers are staring at a 500+ difference in boys at the two schools.

Don't let Pick Central fool you. Fourty years ago Pickerington had 500 people in the whole town. In the last 3 decades it became the place to live on the East side of Columbus and grew very rapidly. As families moved in and their "extracurricular" activities became important on both the girls and boys sides guess what happened ? Apartment buildings and condos went up near the housing developments whereas a LOT of move-in's for sports, band etc. started taking place and it continues to be that way because of an abundance of places to live. There have been many kids from Canal Winchester, Groveport, Reynoldsburg and the East side city league teams (Walnut Ridge, Independence etc.) "move" out to Pickerington so it's not like these are born and bred Pickeringtonites. Ask anyone about the Girls basketball program once Dave Butcher got there after he transferred from Lancaster years ago. You could probably say athletic wise the DI schools (Parochial/Private or Public) in most of the big school districts in and around large metropolitan areas (Cleveland,Columbus,Cincinnati) that have big budgets (Pickerington, Hilliard, Dublin, Olentangy and Canal Winchester) will do very well attracting move-ins as they have good academics and sports, especially renter's who can move to and from whenever they please with nothing more to do than move their belongings and jumping on board the band wagon for that school. Bottom line, discrepancies in #'s alone do not affect DI schools around metro areas as much as they do most DIII and below schools in rural or semi-rural areas where the migration of people is not as great and most families stay put all their life in one area or school district.

[trojandave]

I do think that overall that big schools have an advantage over smaller schools in football........football, more than any other sport, is a numbers game where depth is extremely important..........of course there are exceptions around the state where the numbers discrepancy doesn't seem to make that much of a difference.

If Big School plays Small School 10 years straight, Big School will probably win at least 8-9 of those games, given that both schools have traditionally strong programs.........if the MAC schools (Coldwater, St. Henry, Delphos St. John's, Versailles, Maria Stein Marion, Minster, etc.) play St.Ignatius, St.Xavier, Mentor, Pickerington Central, St.Edward or Hilliard Davidson on a yearly basis, the MAC schools will lose most of the time..........and the only reason will be because of smaller numbers.

But the MAC schools would have a better chance of success vs. middle size powers like DeSales, Watterson, Mooney, Mentor Lake Catholic, or Steubenville.........the numbers difference is not as great........but it is still an uphill battle.

[Sider_PC]

I think that it does make a little bit of a difference. A division 1 school has a lot more people to choose from in the school. They also have more depth. In Division IV, V, or VI, if you lose a player to injury the next guy in line is most likely a freshman or is lacking in the talent or coordination department, where at the bigger schools there is more opportunity for talent, simply because of more people.

[WitnessProtection]

They need a X-Large Div.--lol

[YOU'RE TIGER BAIT]

It cracks me up when people say the number of boys in your school makes a huge difference and that a team in a higher division should beat a lower division team.

For those who whined about a division III team beating/playing, lets say, a division V team ... Check out the disparity at the D1 level.

PICKERINGTON CENTRAL HIGH SCHOOL - 653 boys
ST. XAVIER HIGH SCHOOL - 1,164 boys

Yea, that is a difference of 511 boys between the two schools ... Yet Pickeringotn beat St. X last night 14-7 in the state semi-finals.

511 boys - that is just crazy ... and the team Pickerington faces in the final has 1,121 boys.

The difference between one of the biggest schools (Logan) in southeastern Ohio and the smallest (Trimble) is only 371 boys ... Logan has 478 and Trimble has 107.

I mean, where is the logic? Folks complained about Athens (297 boys) playing Nelsonville-York (151 boys), which is only a difference of 146 boys ... I sure am glad those same folks aren't from Pickerington, they would be going nuts right now ... lol ... The Tigers are staring at a 500+ difference in boys at the two schools.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------SORRY BOSS, I'M GONNA HAVE TO THROW A FLAG ON THIS ONE.
the difference in d1 is not as bad , because they still have tons of kids to pick from, and not have to go ways, play special teams and all.in my opinion, you get below d2 there are huge indifferences in not only controlled enrollment, but differences that are plain as day. and even become more amplified when you have situations like a youngstown ursiline, youngstown mooney, columbus desales.

[Trojan_FB_Alum]

Tobias I actually like your idea. That makes a lot of sense, my only problem with it, is that every team gets to qualify no matter what. I don’t like that, maybe those teams could be given a bye week instead or even play an 11 game regular season so that we could cut it to the top 16 and they could still have their championship the same as the others. Don’t think that would be too hard to do, just got to make sure each 1A school plays another week 11, then start the playoffs for them week 12. Then of course only that teams games through the first 10 weeks would count towards the playoff points for their not 1A opponents, much like it is when someone plays a team from out of state who’s seasons ends later than Ohio’s .
Just a thought but I like the idea of another D1 division.

[Bishtakes]

93....While you have brought up this subject many times, I for one will be NOT be convinced of your argument. While the disparity might be not as much in football, you do not act quick to respond to the other sports (swimming, girls & boys soccer, tennis). You see where I am going here? The next time I go to your gym, my job will be to count the number of TVC titles in all sports since Athens joining the league. I'm sure, one will notice the domination. Personally, if Athens does not win every TVC title in every sport, shame on them.

I do want to ask a favor of you though...can you please start a topic/thread that reads something like this? "Thoughts on Athens joining the TVC". I would love to read other peoples interest from all of the TVC Ohio schools.

[Amarranavajas]

I wish that were true superblue ... But that is not the case at Athens ... Subtract our massive soccer program that has as many athletes as the football team, subtract out golf players, our cross country runners and the Bulldogs are a Division IV team.

Even more boys in the school doesn't = more 'football players.'

2011 rosters:

Nelsonville-York (D5) had 57 players
Athens (D3) had 50 players
Logan (D2) had 50 players

or look at this notion - even more players doesn't carry a whole lot of water ... Trimble (D6) had only 36 players - but I still take them over Vinton County (D3), who had 45 players on its roster.

(Law of averages in an entire state and when your talking about hundreds of schools/teams - you are right about ... When were talking southeastern Ohio football - the 'law' changes and things aren't exactly the same)

But you fail to mention that Athens has 30 players on their freshman team that are not listed on the varsity roster. NY does not have that. Not many D4 teams have 30 freshman playing football. If your coach can't win with 30 more players than most of his opponents then shame on him. And stop comparing schools from other parts of the state. That makes no sense.

[93Bulldog]

93....While you have brought up this subject many times, I for one will be NOT be convinced of your argument. While the disparity might be not as much in football, you do not act quick to respond to the other sports (swimming, girls & boys soccer, tennis). You see where I am going here? The next time I go to your gym, my job will be to count the number of TVC titles in all sports since Athens joining the league. I'm sure, one will notice the domination. Personally, if Athens does not win every TVC title in every sport, shame on them.

I do want to ask a favor of you though...can you please start a topic/thread that reads something like this? "Thoughts on Athens joining the TVC". I would love to read other peoples interest from all of the TVC Ohio schools.

I don't really see the argument coming up much in the other sports ... I know Vinton County has dominated boys basketball, Alexander has dominated both volleyball and girls basketball ... It goes up and down for every school ... You have good classes and bad classes ... Athens was 8-12 in boys basketball last year; the year before they were 18-1 ... Athens was 10-0 in football this year; last year they were 5-5.

My only argument in the original post states that the number of boys in your school doesn't mean you should win a game over a smaller school on the football field ... If it were true, Pickerington Central should have had no chance in winning its game over St. X, which has over 500 more boys in its school ... If that were the case, Vinton County (a DIII school the same as Athens) should just pound Trimble every year, they should pound Nelsonville-York every year ... why are the Vikings always getting the pass? They are in the same region as Athens ... We are both Division II in basketball ... Why shouldn't Vinton County win the TVC title in every sport? Shame on them huh?