OHIO STATE 21 MICHIGAN 10

[fuzzhead]

Hey Fuzz, the only embarassment in the last 3 years for the bowl games was Florida.

The Buckeyes faced the #1 team in the country the year after, and they were #7 when they stopped playing football.

The Buckeyes played a Texas team that should have been playing in the National Title game,
had a chip on their shoulder, and a ton to prove, and was one play away from getting the UPSET.

Call LSU what they were: a two-loss team that, if they'd been a Big 10 team and had lost to UK and Arkansas, wouldn't have even caught a whiff of the National Title.
OSU was embarrased that year and as I said on another thread, they had no shot of winning after halftime.
Also, you could either say that Texas had a chip on their shoulder or you could say that they were disheartened because they didn't reach the big game. You can argue the glass was half-empty or half-full. It's debatable.
The game against Texas was not embarrasing. The TD from Texas was what was embarrassing. And yes, it was very embarrassing.

It was said earlier that the "play not to lose" mentality wouldn't beat a good team.
WAKE UP, it has already beaten 3 top 15 teams this season!

When the play book was opened, and Pryor was allowed to throw the ball over 30 times, and the
running game was secondary...
WE LOST TO PURDUE!!!

Tressel made the decision that it wouldn't happen again, and we haven't lost since.

Sorry, but the only win that looks really good of the three you mentioned is the Penn State game and the only reason I really mention it is because it was on the road in a tough environment and they won convincingly.
They beat a watered-down Iowa team at home by 3 in OT after Iowa had lost to Northwestern the week before. Iowa had gotten lucky many a time and their luck ran out.
They won the Wisconsin game by defense alone. Very few times will you put up 3 TDs on defense and special teams.

The Purdue loss and the USC loss were humiliations, so I'll call their "Big Win" to "Humiliating loss" ratio 3:2 for this year so far and that's being generous because I didn't include an "almost humiliating loss" category.

Believe me, I like JT - especially his personality. I like the fact he trusts his defense and the fact that he likes to run the football. I love teams that are good at running and good at defense. My complaints don't have as much to do with him or his system as much as they do with his apperant contentment with a two-score lead. If you're up on a team, bury them. Don't kill your momentum and make your defense hold the whole game.
As I've said before, it's not just coaching. It's a mixture of coaching, plus the fact that many of the recruits OSU gets are overrated and the fact they have little will power.

[OZZIEOHIO]

Peake wrote

We will have to agree to disagree.

Wish I had a dollar for everytime you have posted that.

[seofan_via_dublin]

Stop the presses and make sure you ask Fuzzhead for approval before you deem a team good.

Apparently he is the all powerful master of determining who is good and how is not,
just ask him, he'll tell you.

OSU only wins against good teams, if he says their good. This way his arguments actually hold water.

[fuzzhead]

I'm just giving my opinion. I'm not trying to stir trouble.

[seofan_via_dublin]

Your opinion does have merit. But you can't just draw a line and say that PSU is the only quality win in the group.

Iowa played better in the game against OSU without Stanzi. They didn't have his gunslinger mentality to turn the ball over
4 times in the game, and the offensive line played very well and gave Vanderbosh time to make reads.

Since when is scoring 3 TDs without the offense a BAD thing? Wisconsin didn't just give those TDs away,
the defense earned them, and in case you hadn't noticed, offense is only 1/3 of the total game.

Why should Tressel go out and embarass other teams, it doesn't accomplish anything.
Instead, Tressel gets a two score lead, and holds it with ball control offense and solid defense.

What you don't notice while he is doing this, is that his second and third string guys are rotating in
and getting playing time during actual important game time. This builds his depth, and makes his backups
better quality guys. This is why they can lose 6 or 7 starters on either side of the ball and still compete for BCS games.

Like I said, your opinion is not without any merit, but it's not anywhere near as bad as you try to make it.

[fuzzhead]

Since when is scoring 3 TDs without the offense a BAD thing? Wisconsin didn't just give those TDs away,
the defense earned them, and in case you hadn't noticed, offense is only 1/3 of the total game.

I'm not going to argue with the first part, because you're saying "tomatoes" and I'm saying "tomotoes".
I've never said anything bad about the defense of OSU. My point was that you can't make a living off of this type of thing.

Why should Tressel go out and embarass other teams, it doesn't accomplish anything.
Instead, Tressel gets a two score lead, and holds it with ball control offense and solid defense.

Don't embarrass. Dominate. Again, this "ball control" philosophy is alright as long as you play mistake-free football. OSU plays very undisiplined at times and is more mistake-prone than in years past. This offense is not made like the 2002 Championship team which perfected "Tressell Ball". This year they have a QB who is more comfortable running, no potentially Heisman-caliber RBs, a decent line, and some pretty good receivers (one really good receiver).

What you don't notice while he is doing this, is that his second and third string guys are rotating in
and getting playing time during actual important game time. This builds his depth, and makes his backups
better quality guys. This is why they can lose 6 or 7 starters on either side of the ball and still compete for BCS games.

Yes, I get that. But if he's able, why not get up by at least 3 TDs and then let those players come in against what would still likely be the 1st-teamers of the opponent?

[seofan_via_dublin]

A three touchdown lead makes teams play from behind and go one dimensional. If they get in with a 1 or 2 score lead,
then they are facing a true offense, that is playing the way they were schemed to play in practice and they are getting more valuable
time on the field to evaluate in the film room.

[Steely Dan]

Hey Fuzz, the only embarassment in the last 3 years for the bowl games was Florida.

The Buckeyes faced the #1 team in the country the year after, and they were #7 when they stopped playing football.

The Buckeyes played a Texas team that should have been playing in the National Title game,
had a chip on their shoulder, and a ton to prove, and was one play away from getting the UPSET.

Call LSU what they were: a two-loss team that, if they'd been a Big 10 team and had lost to UK and Arkansas, wouldn't have even caught a whiff of the National Title.
OSU was embarrased that year and as I said on another thread, they had no shot of winning after halftime.
Also, you could either say that Texas had a chip on their shoulder or you could say that they were disheartened because they didn't reach the big game. You can argue the glass was half-empty or half-full. It's debatable.
The game against Texas was not embarrasing. The TD from Texas was what was embarrassing. And yes, it was very embarrassing.

It was said earlier that the "play not to lose" mentality wouldn't beat a good team.
WAKE UP, it has already beaten 3 top 15 teams this season!

When the play book was opened, and Pryor was allowed to throw the ball over 30 times, and the
running game was secondary...
WE LOST TO PURDUE!!!

Tressel made the decision that it wouldn't happen again, and we haven't lost since.

Sorry, but the only win that looks really good of the three you mentioned is the Penn State game and the only reason I really mention it is because it was on the road in a tough environment and they won convincingly.
They beat a watered-down Iowa team at home by 3 in OT after Iowa had lost to Northwestern the week before. Iowa had gotten lucky many a time and their luck ran out.
They won the Wisconsin game by defense alone. Very few times will you put up 3 TDs on defense and special teams.

The Purdue loss and the USC loss were humiliations, so I'll call their "Big Win" to "Humiliating loss" ratio 3:2 for this year so far and that's being generous because I didn't include an "almost humiliating loss" category.

Believe me, I like JT - especially his personality. I like the fact he trusts his defense and the fact that he likes to run the football. I love teams that are good at running and good at defense. My complaints don't have as much to do with him or his system as much as they do with his apperant contentment with a two-score lead. If you're up on a team, bury them. Don't kill your momentum and make your defense hold the whole game.
As I've said before, it's not just coaching. It's a mixture of coaching, plus the fact that many of the recruits OSU gets are overrated and the fact they have little will power.

You know, it's funny. Fuzz is 100% factual, based with empirical data to support what he says, and yet, he gets second guessed, questioned, accosted, etc, regardless of whether he's posting on OSU threads or High School threads.

Frankly, it is amusing to read these rebuttals, and the questioning of his opinions.

I'm on his side. His posts are not opinionated, they are based on observations that are frankly, based on fact. Like it or not.

And there are quite a few that will take fact and twist it, don't like what he says, and argue about it.

But that is the beauty of this website

[Peake]

Dubs,

Edwards was a phantom holding call away from a 3td 200+ game. Watch the film, there is no comparison in terms of dominance. Film will not lie.

Michigan SHOULD have been up 28-0 at one point thanks to Braylon Edwards, not Perry. Edwards opened up the run game. Go back and watch the film, notice after the first series the SS starts moving back towards the middle of the field instead of closer to the LOS.

But it is what it is...That is why at this point we are 1-8 and you are 8-1....Had more to do with coaching then players.

Fuzz is an excellent poster and there is no doubt about that.

[seofan_via_dublin]

Fuzz is a good opinion, a lot of times he's right, some times he's very wrong, then there's the grey area in between
where he has a point, but it's overstated and right and wrong at the same time.

This is one of those later times.

[Peake]

a lot of times he's right, some times he's very wrong, then there's the grey area in between
where he has a point, but it's overstated and right and wrong at the same time

You are describing all of us on this site including yourself. Often times we are right, often times not, sometimes both parties are in the middle and should just drop the point because they will not see eye to eye. JMO

[Peake]

I agree with that evaluation. I think having two QB's while in Clv who are not very good with the exception of one year may have had something to do with it as well. Since leaving Cleveland he has been pretty good IMO.

My point was that while at Michigan it is hard to argue that he was anyhting but great while at Michigan.

I have heard a similar arguement that Shawn Springs was better then Charles Woodson. I have come to live with the fact that there are so many OSU fans on this site that no matter how great a Michigan player is there is always going to be a better Buckeye.

[seofan_via_dublin]

...no matter how great a Michigan player is there is always going to be a better Buckeye.

for the most part, that statement is correct.

I'm not saying that Edwards was not a great reciever at Michigan either, just the oposite, I think he was.
I'm say that as a Buckeye fan though, I never once went into a game thinking that the Buckeyes needed
to be SCARED at what Edwards could do.

As for Springs vs. Woodson. First time I've ever heard that one.
If your asking for a pure defensive presence, I'm taking Springs.
If you want a very solid defensive player that can contribute in other ways as well, then it's Woodson.
What's your need, that's the better question.

[mister b]

OSU and the Big Ten very much need a Buckeye win in the Rose Bowl this year.

Under JT the Bucks are 4-4 in bowl games and 3-3 in the BCS bowls. They started out on fire in BCS games with 3 straight wins vs Miami (National championship), Kansas and Notre Dame. They have fallen on hard times since by going 0-3 with losses to Florida (NC game), LSU (NC game) and Texas.

The grind it out game plan works well within the Big Ten, proof is the 5 straight titles, but it has not worked well in the last 3 bowl games.

I believe that you dance with what got you to the dance, but sometimes it isn't the best looking thing there. It appears just waiting for the other team to make a mistake will get you burnt. OSU has been outscored in the last 3 BCS games 103 - 59. That is an average of 34 - 19.

I think the public is looking for the best team in the Big Ten to perform better on the big stage against the other conference's top teams in the BCS bowl games.

Couple the last loss in the BCS with the Big Ten as a group going 1-6 in all bowls, leaves folks wondering about the overall strength of the Big Ten. I realize JT and OSU have no control over the other teams bowl records, but the National rankings are nothing more than a popularity contest from the nation's voters.

I would really like to see OSU not only win the Rose Bowl, but do it in a more convincing fashion to silence alot of critics. Just my observations.

[Steely Dan]

Peake - I'm a Buckeye fan, but I've got to give it up for Woodson. He was great in college and a great pro. Springs was very good in college, and a great pro. I actually enjoyed watching Springs Dad play for the Buckeyes much more so than Shawn.

There's no win in these debates about players, but Woodson, in my opinion, is the better corner.

Now, throw Antoine Winfield out there, and I might beg to differ

[Orestes]

I thought Springs ==== better in pure man to man coverage.

Woodson === all-around better defender.


I agree with Steely though about Winfield. He even outplayed Woodson in the '97 game defensively, as no UM WR caught a single pass that day. Boston received for a solid chunk of yards and a TD, plus he dropped a few balls when he was open. That's a Boston problem, not a coverage issue.

[Orestes]

OSU and the Big Ten very much need a Buckeye win in the Rose Bowl this year.

Under JT the Bucks are 4-4 in bowl games and 3-3 in the BCS bowls. They started out on fire in BCS games with 3 straight wins vs Miami (National championship), Kansas and Notre Dame. They have fallen on hard times since by going 0-3 with losses to Florida (NC game), LSU (NC game) and Texas.

The grind it out game plan works well within the Big Ten, proof is the 5 straight titles, but it has not worked well in the last 3 bowl games.

I believe that you dance with what got you to the dance, but sometimes it isn't the best looking thing there. It appears just waiting for the other team to make a mistake will get you burnt. OSU has been outscored in the last 3 BCS games 103 - 59. That is an average of 34 - 19.

I think the public is looking for the best team in the Big Ten to perform better on the big stage against the other conference's top teams in the BCS bowl games.

Couple the last loss in the BCS with the Big Ten as a group going 1-6 in all bowls, leaves folks wondering about the overall strength of the Big Ten. I realize JT and OSU have no control over the other teams bowl records, but the National rankings are nothing more than a popularity contest from the nation's voters.

I would really like to see OSU not only win the Rose Bowl, but do it in a more convincing fashion to silence alot of critics. Just my observations.

LOL. Do you even watch?

The Florida gameplan was far from "grind it out." OSU ran one series where the RBs touched the ball consistently. OSU scored a TD. All the other drives were based around Smith going from the shotgun and throwing the ball. OSU attempted 14 passes and 23 rushes, but 10 of those rushes were Troy Smith for -29 yards. Sacks. Jeesh. So they called 24 passes to 13 rushes.

The LSU gameplan included 20... yes 20 carries to Beanie Wells who was carrying the ball for over 7 yards per pop. Watch the game again. Even with the game tied 10-10, OSU neglected to give the ball to Beanie, and on a 3rd and 3, threw a fade to the endzone that Robiskie dropped. Twenty RB carries is not "grind it out." I was angry that it was too wide open. OSU had 30 rushes and 26 pass attempts, and this counts the QB scrambling and being sacked as a rush.

Against Texas, OSU was running Pryor and bringing in Boeckman. They even used Pryor at WR. I haven't rewatched this one, but I know it wasn't a total "grind it out" gameplan. OSU ran the ball 39 times and threw it 25 times. They averaged 5.2 ypc, and the offense gave them the lead in the 4th.


Looks to me like OSU needs to commit to the running game in the bowl game. Plus, what better way to attack Oregon (if it's them) and their 265 lb D-line? What better way to control their offense?

[mister b]

Yes I watched. I watched OSU return the opening kickoff for a TD then watched UF score the next 34 out of 41 points to lead 34-14 at the half. You can't run the ball and try to control the clock when your offense has a hard time getting on the field so JT had to try and get the offense going by throwing the ball a whopping 14 times. They tried the ball control stuff WHEN the O got on the field. OSU had 47 yds rushing and 35 yds passing. OSU only had 1 fumble and 1 int. Turnovers weren't really a factor. I don't see anywhere that JT "opened" it up against Florida. They were simply outclassed by a team that threw the ball 37 times, yet ran it 43 times.

I also watched OSU score the first 10 against LSU and then watched the Tigers hang 31 straight on the Bucks before they could get a score late in the 4th to bring it within a "respectable" 14 point loss that wasn't really respectable. LSU ran the ball 49 times and threw it 27 to OSU's 30 runs and 26 passes. Again, I don't see where JT really opened it up against LSU as they still ran the ball more than they threw it. Again, they were outclassed by a team that ran the ball 49 times and passed it just 27.

I will say that the ball control offense worked better against Texas with OSU having 39 rushes vs 25 pass attempts. Wells and Pryor ran the ball nicely against Texas. Both Pryor and Boeckman stunk the place up as they were 5 of 12 and 5 of 13 respectively in the passing department. Still, Texas only turned it over once when McCoy went 41-58 with 1 int. Again, putting faith in the defense backfired as the Longhorns went 78 yards in 11 plays to score a TD with 16 seconds left for the win.

OSU didn't control the ball enough to play that type of game against these 3 teams and couldn't get the turnovers it needed like has happened during the regular season.

Defensively, OSU needs to step up if they are going to continue to try and win games with a ball control offense.

I don't fault JT's game plan. I think he is a top notch coach. He has been very succesful but he needs to a win bowl game this year and to get some respect back. Being the top team in the Big Ten and losing to the SEC's best 2 times and the Big 12's once and then, if they loss to the Pac 12's best Oregon, won't set well with the national media and then we will have to listen to them hammer on the bridesmaid Buckeyes another off-season.

JT does what JT does in both the regular and bowl season. He only "opens it up" when his first option isn't working. For some reason, the ball control offense fails him within the red zone when it works well on the rest of the field.

If you are going to sit back and win it with defense, then the defense needs to perform. Something it hasn't done well of late during the bowl season.

Finally, against Purdue, didn't OSU gain 177 yards of offense with the ball in Pryor's hands during the 4th quarter when they had only gained 110 in the 3 previous quarters? I think JT had some confidence that Pryor could move the ball against a bad Purdue team and use it build him up. It seemed to backfire for 3 quarters but started to work well in the 4th.

[Orestes]

No one ever said that OSU played well in those games, but they were not conservative at all. Most people are furious about the offense against Florida because OSU refused to stick with the running game. When they ran the ball for a TD, it made the score 21-14. UF then got a fg to make it 24-14. OSU then went 3 and out with three straight passes. Yep. That sure is attempting to control the ball.

They were horrible against UF. They were mistake ridden against LSU. However, conservative they were not.


My biggest complaint about JT is that he sometimes goes away from the conservative style at times when I'd like to see him use it the most. For instance, before the half against USC. Also, before the half against Purdue.

[seofan_via_dublin]

If we would have stayed with the running game against Florida,
Troy Smith wouldn't have been sacked as much, and wouldn't have turned the ball
over to Florida within 40 yards of their endzone that many times.

Time of possesion for the Florida offense would not have been as great, and out defense
could have worked without the shadow of the endzone in play from the first snap of
the possesion.

Running is not a bad thing. Woody taught us, 3 things happen when you throw, 2 of them are bad!