Confederate group not allowed to march on Memorial Day

[Der_Kommissar1968]

At the risk of turning this into a political forum issue, let's be honest about a couple of things. Many German soldiers in Hitler's Waffen-SS were appalled by the treatment that the Jews received under Hitler. Many were forced into service. Now before you go crazy asking why I'm comparing the south's rebels to German nazis, I'm not. It's an analogy. So, like the average Confederate soldier who may have not owned any slaves, many German regular army soldiers had no beef with Jews. But I doubt we'd welcome with open arms a group who wants to carry the Nazi flag in the parade.

Also TC, I admitted that it might be simplistic to say that the Civil War was fought over slavery. Yes, there were economic issues the southern states were concerned about, but let's be honest about that too. The southern economy was propped up by slavery. The other element that many southerners feared was the idea of giving equal rights to blacks. If you don't think this scared the bejezus out of them, I'd say you're very wrong. You start giving blacks equal rights, then there goes the plantations, and without the free labor, the southern economy falls.

But I'm not even thinking about this in context of the Ironton parade. I'm thinking more about the black Ironton family, the mom and dad, sitting on the curb watching the parade go by, and their little boy or girl asking mom and dad what that flag is all about and them having to explain all of this. If I were them, it would make me want to get up and leave. Refusing this group entry into the parade isn't a nod to political correctness. It goes well beyond that. It's about giving other peoples' ancestors who were victimized by the system the exact same respect that these confederate ancestors demand. After all, I think they deserve it.

What history book have you been reading out of? I know this is geting off the subject but belonging to the Waffen SS was almost akin to a blood oath. Those men knew beforehand exactly what Hitler had planned for the Jews. They were sadistical murderers and every single one of them knew going into it what they were getting themselves into.

Not all of them Space. I'm talking about the Waffen-SS foot soldiers who were forced into service after 1943. They didn't have a choice. Many of them had no problem with Jews. These are just facts Space. Obviously, many were sadistic murderers and surely enjoyed their jobs, but not all of them. I'm not sure what books you have been reading that says every single Waffen soldier was a maniacal killer, but I'd run from any book that makes a generalization like that. Of course, as always, with all due respect Space.

Anyway, my only point was that those soldiers who were forced into conscription and had no problems with Jews are analogous to confederate soldiers who owned no slaves but fought for the south. But we sure as heck aren't going to like anyone parading around with a Nazi flag. That's all.

[Tigercannon71]

"Memorial Day" was instituted shortly after the Civil War to honor all soldiers, all Americans, who had served their country and lost their lives.
I totally agree with that. What I have a problem with is "glorifying" the whole secessionist cause as something noble, heroic, and "patriotic". They caused and then LOST a treasonous, hurtful WAR which tore this country apart and cost thousands of lives of young men, and civilians, too who had no voice or choice in serving/participating. That flag isn't in the least glorious, and doesn't deserve "waving"; but the lives and sacrifice it cost certainly deserve remembrance.
Slave owners in the 1860's said that dark-skinned people were inherently inferior and enslaved them; by the 1960's dark-skinned people were being drafted as soldiers and used on the front lines in Vietnam because they were considered the most "expendable", but maybe not allowed to vote at all in some of those "secessionist" states, or date who or live where they wanted. Hispanic Americans are in a similar position now. Good for service - demanded and required - without much reciprocity in return. ALL Americans of every color, ethnicity, religion, and political persuasion are allowed to "protest", argue, and publically express their opinions. Whether or not I agree, and however much I hate their concept, they're still allowed to SAY it. And ALL soldiers who have ever served and put their lives on the line [by force or by choice] to protect and defend our rights deserve honor and respect.

I respect your post but disagree with the last sentence.

The soldiers from the South did nothing to defend our rights. They may deserve honor and respect because of the terrible situation they were in but not for fighting for us.

Terrible situation? Thats not giving them respect for their bravery and valor that sounds more like your giving them pity. Yea war is terrible, but these men thought they were fighting a second revolution. For them it wasnt a terrible situation it was them doing what they thought at that moment was right.

[Tigercannon71]

Not all of them Space. I'm talking about the Waffen-SS foot soldiers who were forced into service after 1943. They didn't have a choice. Many of them had no problem with Jews. These are just facts Space. Obviously, many were sadistic murderers and surely enjoyed their jobs, but not all of them. I'm not sure what books you have been reading that says every single Waffen soldier was a maniacal killer, but I'd run from any book that makes a generalization like that. Of course, as always, with all due respect Space.

Anyway, my only point was that those soldiers who were forced into conscription and had no problems with Jews are analogous to confederate soldiers who owned no slaves but fought for the south. But we sure as heck aren't going to like anyone parading around with a Nazi flag. That's all.

Der, comparing those conscripts to the southern soldier is still wrong. The Confederate soldiers werent forced into fighting. They signed up because the North invaded their territory. They were fighting voluntarily for their land and rights. The conscripts in the Waffen SS were forced to fight. A German SS officer stood behind them with a gun in case they tried to run during a fight. That wasnt necessary for the Confederates.
As for parading with a Nazi flag are we talking about for a historical reenactment or to just parade with one? There is a big difference between the two.

[Der_Kommissar1968]

Well obviously there are pretty strong feelings on both sides of the Ironton parade issue. But ultimately, I agree with Instructor and hope that the issue, one way or another, doesn't overshadow what is otherwise a pretty cool tradition for Ironton. It's been years since I've been back home and attended the parade. I just remember it always being a fun time, then going down to Sta-Tan for some swimming and girl watching.

[Orange and Brown]

Well obviously there are pretty strong feelings on both sides of the Ironton parade issue. But ultimately, I agree with Instructor and hope that the issue, one way or another, doesn't overshadow what is otherwise a pretty cool tradition for Ironton. It's been years since I've been back home and attended the parade. I just remember it always being a fun time, then going down to Sta-Tan for some swimming and girl watching.

OH the girl watching!!

[Der_Kommissar1968]

Well obviously there are pretty strong feelings on both sides of the Ironton parade issue. But ultimately, I agree with Instructor and hope that the issue, one way or another, doesn't overshadow what is otherwise a pretty cool tradition for Ironton. It's been years since I've been back home and attended the parade. I just remember it always being a fun time, then going down to Sta-Tan for some swimming and girl watching.

OH the girl watching!!

Yep, the girl watching. I always impressed them with my perfect feet-first dives from the high dive.

[Orange and Brown]

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[caglewis]

Whether or not you recognized it, Sta-Tan was actually an absolutely "segregated" private club. I was a paid-up member, but forbidden to bring my black niece and nephew there as my guests.
The "girl-watching" you so fondly remember at Sta-Tan was all of white girls, right? And that situation probably struck you as just "normal"?

[The Instructor]

"Memorial Day" was instituted shortly after the Civil War to honor all soldiers, all Americans, who had served their country and lost their lives.
I totally agree with that. What I have a problem with is "glorifying" the whole secessionist cause as something noble, heroic, and "patriotic". They caused and then LOST a treasonous, hurtful WAR which tore this country apart and cost thousands of lives of young men, and civilians, too who had no voice or choice in serving/participating. That flag isn't in the least glorious, and doesn't deserve "waving"; but the lives and sacrifice it cost certainly deserve remembrance.
Slave owners in the 1860's said that dark-skinned people were inherently inferior and enslaved them; by the 1960's dark-skinned people were being drafted as soldiers and used on the front lines in Vietnam because they were considered the most "expendable", but maybe not allowed to vote at all in some of those "secessionist" states, or date who or live where they wanted. Hispanic Americans are in a similar position now. Good for service - demanded and required - without much reciprocity in return. ALL Americans of every color, ethnicity, religion, and political persuasion are allowed to "protest", argue, and publically express their opinions. Whether or not I agree, and however much I hate their concept, they're still allowed to SAY it. And ALL soldiers who have ever served and put their lives on the line [by force or by choice] to protect and defend our rights deserve honor and respect.

I respect your post but disagree with the last sentence.

The soldiers from the South did nothing to defend our rights. They may deserve honor and respect because of the terrible situation they were in but not for fighting for us.

Terrible situation? Thats not giving them respect for their bravery and valor that sounds more like your giving them pity. Yea war is terrible, but these men thought they were fighting a second revolution. For them it wasnt a terrible situation it was them doing what they thought at that moment was right.

Treating people as property and worse than animals isn't brave or deserving of valor.

If others want to think of them as brave and deserving of valor because they thought what they were doing was right, it is up to them but I refuse to honor them.

The whole thing was shameful and disgraceful.

You can talk about it all you want but any way you look at it, they were wrong.

[Der_Kommissar1968]

Whether or not you recognized it, Sta-Tan was an absolutely "segregated "private club" I was a paid-up member, but forbidden to bring my black niece and nephew there as my guests.
The "girl-watching" you so fondly remember at Sta-Tan was all of white girls, right? And that probably just struck you as just "normal"?

Ah, but despite the fact that Sta-Tan was a segregated private club, you were a paid up member and you went anyway . . . and you have no fond memories? Not a single one? It wasn't until years later that I was aware of Sta-Tan's policies in that regard. I'll be honest though, as a young kid (who didn't know anything from anything) growing up in what was then a de facto segregated small town (I'm not sure how or if the situation has changed from the 70's & 80's), I can't say that I would have made any kind of principled stand on that. Sad to say, but I wasn't very socially aware back then. But as we grow up, we learn and try to do the right thing. So to answer your question, in that time and place, yes, it was normal. Does normal mean good or acceptable? Obviously it doesn't. It was bad then, it would be bad now.

But really, you don't have to lecture me on this stuff. While I'm white, my wife isn't and therefore my son isn't. Don't think I don't have have to watch and defend both of them against the occasional stupid "harmless" remark or conduct by idiots. There are definitely places that we go as a family that I have to remain vigilant because of stupid people and stupid attitudes. So thanks, but I don't need it.

[The Instructor]

Whether or not you recognized it, Sta-Tan was actually an absolutely "segregated" private club, I was a paid-up member, but forbidden to bring my black niece and nephew there as my guests.
The "girl-watching" you so fondly remember at Sta-Tan was all of white girls, right? And that probably just struck you as just "normal"?

I have been a member of Sta-Tan all of my life.

When I was a kid, I practically lived there during the summer.

When I was young, I saw people bring guests in who weren't white.

It didn't happen often but it did happen.

Once, someone brought a guest in who was black and we didn't really think much of it. What we did think much of was the tiny Speedo bathing suit he was wearing! I will never forget it. It made a huge impression on me at an early age.

[Tigercannon71]

Treating people as property and worse than animals isn't brave or deserving of valor.

If others want to think of them as brave and deserving of valor because they thought what they were doing was right, it is up to them but I refuse to honor them.

The whole thing was shameful and disgraceful.

You can talk about it all you want but any way you look at it, they were wrong.

So I take it you dont honor Christmas or Easter then right? That honors Jesus and God which are Christian beliefs. Going along with that is the enslavement and deaths of thousands throughout history. From the Crusades, to the taming of the American West, to the exploration of Africa. Where ever missionaries went bloodshed and grief followed with them.

The problem here is you people are turning it into a black and white thing. Its not a race thing its about honoring American Veterans. By decree of the US Government these veterans are considered American Veterans. They deserve a chance to be honored. This is the meaning of memorial day. Look up the History of Memorial Day see how it got started.

What about those Irontonians whose relatives fought in the Civil War for the South. Should their relatives contributions count any less than those who fought for the North? At Woodland do they not honor all the war dead North and South? Or do they honor all the vets and then say with the exception of the Southern soldiers buried here?

Yeah Instructor they might have been wrong about States Rights, but the bravery, valor, and sacrifices that those men put forth on the battlefield and throughout the war werent wrong. They fought as hard as the North did and as bravely and they deserve to be honored. Only person that is perfect is God. Everybody has faults that doesnt mean you dont give them their respect and honor when it is due.

[Space Cowboy]

Whatcha wanta bet that they would allow illegal border jumpers walk up the street with a Mexican, flag protesting our lack of Spanish speaking facilities?

And which is a greater problem in America today? Those who lost a terrible war expressing the love of their heritage or the illegals swamping our schools and medical vacilities?

I hope the pendulum on political correctness swings the other way soon. And it will when the general public gets fed up with the very loud few controling the lives of the majority.

[The Instructor]

Treating people as property and worse than animals isn't brave or deserving of valor.

If others want to think of them as brave and deserving of valor because they thought what they were doing was right, it is up to them but I refuse to honor them.

The whole thing was shameful and disgraceful.

You can talk about it all you want but any way you look at it, they were wrong.

So I take it you dont honor Christmas or Easter then right? That honors Jesus and God which are Christian beliefs. Going along with that is the enslavement and deaths of thousands throughout history. From the Crusades, to the taming of the American West, to the exploration of Africa. Where ever missionaries went bloodshed and grief followed with them.

The problem here is you people are turning it into a black and white thing. Its not a race thing its about honoring American Veterans. By decree of the US Government these veterans are considered American Veterans. They deserve a chance to be honored. This is the meaning of memorial day. Look up the History of Memorial Day see how it got started.

What about those Irontonians whose relatives fought in the Civil War for the South. Should their relatives contributions count any less than those who fought for the North? At Woodland do they not honor all the war dead North and South? Or do they honor all the vets and then say with the exception of the Southern soldiers buried here?

Yeah Instructor they might have been wrong about States Rights, but the bravery, valor, and sacrifices that those men put forth on the battlefield and throughout the war werent wrong. They fought as hard as the North did and as bravely and they deserve to be honored. Only person that is perfect is God. Everybody has faults that doesnt mean you dont give them their respect and honor when it is due.

You can bring up religion but I am not a religious person. So, I am not going to get into the Bible. To me, it is a piece of literature. I will not talk religion on here.

I didn't say anyone was perfect. To me, they were wrong. That is how I feel.

To get right down to it, I don't think they should be honored. Honoring those who wanted to fight to treat human beings as property and animals is not something I support.

I know there are more issues than slavery concerning the Civil War. I know quite a bit about it. I have studied it quite a bit over the years. So, when talking to me, you can keep your history lessons to yourself.

[caglewis]

Ah, but despite the fact that Sta-Tan was a segregated private club, you were a paid up member and you went anyway . . . and you have no fond memories? Not a single one?

Nope, not one. I belonged and paid their dues because that pool was within walking distance for my kids and gave them someplace to go and something to do while I was at work. I hate water, can't swim, sunburn easily and was only ever a Sta-Tan member for the benefit of my kids!
I never went there for/by myself.

[Tigercannon71]

Maybe you should study up on it a little more. Did you know Nathan Bedford Forrest, a slave trader and one of the greatest cavalry men ever, freed his slaves when the war started and they actually fought side by side with him. Did you know the Confederates actually talked about arming the slaves and raising slave units integrated with white troops before way before the Union thought about it. Of course you study the war so you should know that information. So are you saying those slaves fought for the right to enslave men? They fought for the same reason thousands of others fought and died for their rights. Really going with your logic we shouldnt honor the 4th of July either. Those men died to create a slave nation. America wasnt a free nation and the men who fought and signed the Dec of Independence owned slaves. So whats the difference between honoring our founding fathers and the Confederates?

[The Instructor]

Ah, but despite the fact that Sta-Tan was a segregated private club, you were a paid up member and you went anyway . . . and you have no fond memories? Not a single one?

Nope, not one. I belonged and paid their dues because that pool was within walking distance for my kids and gave them someplace to go and something to do while I was at work. I hate water, can't swim, sunburn easily and was only ever a Sta-Tan member for the benefit of my kids!

I remember seeing your kids there.

They became sunburned easily too!

[seofan_via_dublin]

Seems that not many people here realize that the vast, and I mean vast, majority of
slave owners worked the fields right beside their slaves. They bought slaves to help on the farm,
and to help out in the fields.

Only 2% of all slave owners ever owned more than 200 slaves, and a very small
number of owners ever lived on what we would call a "plantation".

If you had enough money coming in to your farm, that you could afford to buy extra help, and increase your
output, then you at the time bought slaves.

It doesn't make it any more right or acceptable, but conditions for most slaves in the south were not as they are
portrayed.

[The Instructor]

Very true....

I have visited several plantations and saw slave houses.

They were terrible.

Boone Hall Plantation near Charleston, SC has several original slave houses.

[kantuckyII]

Everyone speaks of slavery in two big mistaken ideas..1. that it was only a white on black thing and 2. that it was a thing of the past. This recent National Geographic statement is pretty stunning and disturbing:

There are more slaves today than were seized from Africa in four centuries of the trans-Atlantic slave trade. The modern commerce in humans rivals illegal drug trafficking in its global reach—and in the destruction of lives.

The average slave today goes for $90.00! http://www.freetheslaves.net/Page.aspx?pid=183