What will it take for an SEOP area team to rise up to state-level competitor?

[efarns]

You’ve disagreed with me that coaching is the most important factor, and you keep referring back to income.

You’ve disagreed with me that coaching is the most important factor, and you keep referring back to income.

No. I never have said it was or it wasn't. I have said that demographics matter.

You stated above that if you want to get Kirtland results you need Kirtland money! You said nothing about the coach. Btw, the ONLY coach who has had any success at Kirtland. How come those resources didn’t help prior coaches?

Nope. I did not.

[RBH23]

No. I never have said it was or it wasn't. I have said that demographics matter.

You stated above that if you want to get Kirtland results you need Kirtland money! You said nothing about the coach. Btw, the ONLY coach who has had any success at Kirtland. How come those resources didn’t help prior coaches?

Nope. I did not.

My bad, you “implied” it. Is that better?

Here’s an exact quote from you:
“If you want to re-create Kirtland's program, consider . . . .The average price of a home in Kirtland is around $350,000. Just affording to live in the district makes it every bit as exclusive as an expensive private school in many places.”

You mentioned nothing about the coach and everything about Kirtland’s finances. You implied that was the key to their success!


However, it is not. They are successful because they have a fantastic coach who brought an approach to football that turned Kirtland from a joke of a program into one of the best in the state. And how did he do it? Discipline, run-heavy offense, strong defense.

As to why Burg and IHS don’t have the same success despite having better talent than Kirtland, both programs lack discipline. The discipline of these two teams is downright awful at times.

Next, neither team focuses on the run. They want to run the spread and throw the ball around instead of developing a disciplined running attack; the kind that Miller and Lutz did very well. For Burg, this is an utter disaster because they don’t have the athletes for such an offense. At least IHS has the talent to make it work.

Both have decent defenses that get screwed over by their horrific offensive play. Turnovers, quick three and outs, etc constantly put pressure on their D. Kirtland is smart about this, hence why they use a run heavy O. Takes time off the clock, wears the other team down, and protects their D.

In summary, Kirtland’s success has zero to do with their money but everything to do with their coach.

[Baldeagle]

Ironton got infiltrated by idiots like Tristate79 who dont have the nads to battle.

[bucs40]

A miracle and the northern teams not 2 show up......

[Wildcatone]

I read these articles. The question is “did you?”

The first states that in the state of New York, after schools win state titles in football, their property values go up. In other words, winning football makes a town richer. It is not saying that rich towns are winning!

The second article you’re shared before. The analysis is flawed since they cherry picked data by focusing only on two of the divisions in Texas football. Didn’t consider ALL divisions in doing their analysis. I could prove the world is flat and grass is purple if allowed to cherry pick my data.


Finally, I’ll ignore Kirtland and give you another school to prove my point. Hilliard Davidson!

This school has never been poor, but wasn’t a football power until Brian White took over as coach. Yes, Brian White who played at Burg under Ed Miller. He implemented Ed’s style to perfection: running team excellent at blocking and tackling. With that, Hilliard won multiple D1 state titles and I believe five regional titles.

Then Brian White retired and the Hilliard Davidson football team went a different direction with their approach. The results? Absolutely terrible. The program is a complete mess.

Hilliard’s finances didn’t change. Only thing that changed is that they moved away from the style of football under White that made them successful.

If Tiger retires, and Kirtland tries to be a spread team, you’ll see the same collapse.

whites davidson teams beat teams on a regular basis that his teams didnt belong on the field with talent wise

Yes!

https://247sports.com/college/ohio-stat ... 38649/Amp/

I live in Hilliard and my kids both graduated from the school. I started following Davidson around the time White took over and it was a glorious run. You are 100 percent correct regarding the current situation at Davidson since White left and the new coach/staff went another direction for some reason. It's now a disaster with the community losing interest. The blueprint for success was there before the current coach took over and he abandoned it. Now they are a below average program headed towards winning 2 or 3 games a year going forward with that poor coaching staff. Let me tell you what happened the second half of the past season. In each of the last 6 games for the first 3 quarters in each game which equals 18 quarters, they scored a TOTAL of 15 points ! How does that happen ? Running the pistol formation with a single back and running the ball with only 1 option 80 percent of the time. The poor starting RB ran into a brick wall every down and gained maybe a yard or 2 about 90 percent of the time. It was just horribly painful to watch. The QB rarely ran to give another option and of course they only threw 5 to 7 times a game. How hard is it for an opposing defense to stop that ? If you are going to run the pistol fine, throw more to keep the defense honest. If not, go back to the triple option and pound the defense. They had the running backs and OL this past year to win 8 or 9 games with the White system but the coaching staff had to be stubborn and stick with a system that does not work for that school. If you are going to run a more diverse offense that great ,but you better have the talent or have some move in to implement it. Davidson does not do that. It's very sad to see the destruction of a great program.

[RBH23]

whites davidson teams beat teams on a regular basis that his teams didnt belong on the field with talent wise

Yes!

https://247sports.com/college/ohio-stat ... 38649/Amp/

I live in Hilliard and my kids both graduated from the school. I started following Davidson around the time White took over and it was a glorious run. You are 100 percent correct regarding the current situation at Davidson since White left and the new coach/staff went another direction for some reason. It's now a disaster with the community losing interest. The blueprint for success was there before the current coach took over and he abandoned it. Now they are a below average program headed towards winning 2 or 3 games a year going forward with that poor coaching staff. Let me tell you what happened the second half of the past season. In each of the last 6 games for the first 3 quarters in each game which equals 18 quarters, they scored a TOTAL of 15 points ! How does that happen ? Running the pistol formation with a single back and running the ball with only 1 option 80 percent of the time. The poor starting RB ran into a brick wall every down and gained maybe a yard or 2 about 90 percent of the time. It was just horribly painful to watch. The QB rarely ran to give another option and of course they only threw 5 to 7 times a game. How hard is it for an opposing defense to stop that ? If you are going to run the pistol fine, throw more to keep the defense honest. If not, go back to the triple option and pound the defense. They had the running backs and OL this past year to win 8 or 9 games with the White system but the coaching staff had to be stubborn and stick with a system that does not work for that school. If you are going to run a more diverse offense that great ,but you better have the talent or have some move in to implement it. Davidson does not do that. It's very sad to see the destruction of a great program.

Very sorry to hear this. Have read articles that Hilliard football wants to go back to what made them successful but obviously hasn’t happened yet.

I remember the 2013 Hilliard versus eventual state champ Moeller game. Hilliard lost 13-11, but they played hard with incredible discipline. Moeller had over half-dozen D1 recruits while Hilliard had one. But they made a game of it despite the talent gap.

That level of discipline is missing at Burg and IHS. Plus, Burg doubles down running an offense that requires a superstar QB and athletes on the edge that can win one on one. Ugh!!

[OVC]

What I think needs to take place for a SEO team to get to “that level” is to not vilify Ironton and Wheelersburg. Maybe take a page out of their book. Personally speaking, I think it’s ridiculous that certain individual(s) made Ironton go independent in football instead of see that as a bar to achieve for their program moving forward. Look at the MAC. There is a saying in western Ohio that it’s easier to win a state title than to win the MAC championship. That is because Coldwater and Marion Local raised the bar for everyone else to follow. Since 2015, seven schools from that one conference has won a state championship in football and fourteen total state titles in that span. Not to mention countless other state titles in basketball (both boys and girls), baseball, volleyball, and so on. You either work to get better or are satisfied with the status quo.

Also, don’t be afraid to ask for input. Kudos to Pendleton for going up and watching Marion Local practice after Ironton got knocked out of the playoffs. I’m not an Ironton fan by any means, but I respect the heck out of what they’ve accomplished.

[efarns]

Obviously, great coaching is the foundation to a football program. But Ignoring other factors is just ignorant. I only chose this one because it's pretty obviously true.

https://stories.usatodaynetwork.com/sch ... 1vhSWWz_QY

"The average percentage of low-income students at large Texas high schools that have won state football championships since 1994 is 23%, according to the Statesman analysis. The largest Central Texas high schools with the lowest rates of student poverty (one third or fewer of students receiving federally-subsidized lunches), won 59% of their varsity football games between 2008 and 2018. During that same time period, large Central Texas high schools with the highest rates of poverty (at least two-thirds of students receiving federally-subsidized lunches) won 36% of their games."


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/24/heal ... ldren.html

"Data from multiple sources reveal a significant gap in sports participation by income level. A Centers for Disease Control and Prevention study found that 70 percent of children from families with incomes above about $105,000 — four times the poverty line — participated in sports in 2020. But participation was around 51 percent for families in a middle-income range, and just 31 percent for families at or below the poverty line.

A combination of factors is responsible. Spending cuts and changing priorities at some public schools have curtailed physical education classes and organized sports. At the same time, privatized youth sports have become a multibillion-dollar enterprise offering new opportunities — at least for families that can afford hundreds to thousands of dollars each season for club-team fees, uniforms, equipment, travel to tournaments and private coaching."

When Fort Frye played Kirtland, The Hornets had twice as many players as Fort Frye. I don't know how the incomes compare, but I can say the real estate values are about 4x as much in Kirtland. Gee, it's almost as if the statistics in that New York Times article matter.

In conclusion: There are some great coaches in Southeastern Ohio. The fact that they can't duplicate KIRTLAND'S success has more than one component. Ignoring the other challenges is just ignorant.

And, if it is just 100% coaching, then it doesn't matter anyway. The Kirtland guy (the greatest coach in history) is satisfied to sit in Division VI and wax everybody by 40. He isn't coming to Southeastern Ohio to lead Vinton County to glory.

[RBH23]

Obviously, great coaching is the foundation to a football program. But Ignoring other factors is just ignorant. I only chose this one because it's pretty obviously true.

https://stories.usatodaynetwork.com/sch ... 1vhSWWz_QY

"The average percentage of low-income students at large Texas high schools that have won state football championships since 1994 is 23%, according to the Statesman analysis. The largest Central Texas high schools with the lowest rates of student poverty (one third or fewer of students receiving federally-subsidized lunches), won 59% of their varsity football games between 2008 and 2018. During that same time period, large Central Texas high schools with the highest rates of poverty (at least two-thirds of students receiving federally-subsidized lunches) won 36% of their games."


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/24/heal ... ldren.html

"Data from multiple sources reveal a significant gap in sports participation by income level. A Centers for Disease Control and Prevention study found that 70 percent of children from families with incomes above about $105,000 — four times the poverty line — participated in sports in 2020. But participation was around 51 percent for families in a middle-income range, and just 31 percent for families at or below the poverty line.

A combination of factors is responsible. Spending cuts and changing priorities at some public schools have curtailed physical education classes and organized sports. At the same time, privatized youth sports have become a multibillion-dollar enterprise offering new opportunities — at least for families that can afford hundreds to thousands of dollars each season for club-team fees, uniforms, equipment, travel to tournaments and private coaching."

When Fort Frye played Kirtland, The Hornets had twice as many players as Fort Frye. I don't know how the incomes compare, but I can say the real estate values are about 4x as much in Kirtland. Gee, it's almost as if the statistics in that New York Times article matter.

In conclusion: There are some great coaches in Southeastern Ohio. The fact that they can't duplicate KIRTLAND'S success has more than one component. Ignoring the other challenges is just ignorant.

And, if it is just 100% coaching, then it doesn't matter anyway. The Kirtland guy (the greatest coach in history) is satisfied to sit in Division VI and wax everybody by 40. He isn't coming to Southeastern Ohio to lead Vinton County to glory.

You are back with this nonsense showing the same articles that I explained to you once before. Well, let’s try this one more time.

First the Texas article: the author cherry picked data to make their point by only focusing on three divisions. This is a terrible analysis that would not be respected by anyone with any basic knowledge of stats.

Second, the NYT article: it is talking about ALL sports, not focused on football. I never said that money wasn’t a big factor in certain sports. Lacrosse, soccer, field hockey, etc are dominated by rich schools, mainly because poor schools don’t have these programs. But our debate is about football so please stick to the topic at hand.

Third, Kirtland has lots of players but so does Ironton, and the money difference between those communities is huge. Burg has nearly double the players of any other SOC school, but Burg isn’t significantly wealthier than these other schools. Meanwhile many of the richest communities in Ohio have terrible football participation. So money does not equal participation.

Fourth, if money was the primary driver as you insinuate by your obsession, then why was Kirtland’s program awful before Tiger? Why did ML not have any state titles before their current HC? Why did Hilliard Davidson’s program go straight into the gutter when White resigned?

Even looking at a program like Burg. How did they go from awful to great in just one season when Miller arrived? How did Ruby create arguably the best softball program in all of Ohio in a rural, relatively poor school?

Coaching is the #1 factor by a wide margin!!